Good call?

[umpirecordova]

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Do you think this was the right call? I thought it was a good call in a crucial part of the game. Would you make the same call?

[dumbdumb]

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Do you think this was the right call? I thought it was a good call in a crucial part of the game. Would you make the same call?

Ask Harry Wendelstedt and catcher Dick Dietz and the San Francisco Giants team May 31, 1968. Giants still hate him.

Looks like a good gutsy call. Notice how batter doesn't say a word or even glance back after striking out.

However in other circles it may get you a bad rating, a few "you will not work our games or our league again"(and it may happen if it is a high ranking coach in the area) , a help request, along with a nice call to the assignor.

Here's another one.

when you click on this link (same as umpirecordova) look below and click on the cincinnati/chicago one that says dropped 3rd strike

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=14886823

For those in the know (not me) let's hear how this 3rd strike is handled from the MLBUM, MiLB, NCAA, NF, LL, etc etc.--Follow this tape all the way and notice how the batter is clearly a couple steps in the grass on the way to the dugout and has no intentions of going to first since he thinks the ball was not in the dirt and he is out, until he hears his team tell him to run.

Also for those who work at all the different levels and those who just went to the umpire schools---how do the mechanics for this play work at each level?

Added oops-5/19/20

oops--And I believe the mechanic for any catcher in pro ball starting all the way back in MiLB is to immediately tag the runner on any 3rd strike ball that may or may not be trapped just to make sure nothing like this play can happen period, end of story. Player violated that rule.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Added after 2 comments below

Not a help call.

2BU umpire, just like a play for 1BU must judge runner beating the play or not, and also judging if fielder is off the bag when ball pops the glove or is player on the bag when ball pops glove. No need for help. Make the call. Listen to manager who disagrees, do not get help if he asks, and eject if he crosses the line. Looks like the argument is just about the runner beating the play anyway and not about getting help on whether on the bag or off the bag. Why do we have trouble with seeing the fielders foot touching the bag but never the runners foot touching the bag. How can we always be straight-lined for one but not the other?

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=14908537

[Thunderheads]

I was just about ready to post this ....this is a GREAT call, and very GUTSY!! BUT, CORRECT!!

AND ...

On that Cubs Reds uncaught 3rd strike ....I almost had that happen to me on Monday night ...I signaled a swinging 3rd strike,... and watched, as the batter turned and looked....I took off my mask ....no one did anything .....runner starts to go, TAG HIM, TAG HIM ....then they throw down to first for the out...

F2 ... "blue , what the heck?" I just looked at him ...and said .."2 outs, pitch hit the ground" ...... F2: " ...$hit ..that's right! :)

[txump81]

Good Call on Downs by Marquez.

On the Reds game...I have a strike out in MLB. He had left the dirt circle.

In LL, game on. He had not entered the dugout.

Not sure in other codes.

[Thunderheads]

Good Call on Downs by Marquez.

On the Reds game...I have a strike out in MLB. He had left the dirt circle.

In LL, game on. He had not entered the dugout.

Not sure in other codes.

The dirt circle is OBR ???

[Mr Umpire]

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Do you think this was the right call? I thought it was a good call in a crucial part of the game. Would you make the same call?

Yes. And, I have when a batter just stood completely still on a very slow pitch and watched it hit his foot. I kept him in the box for no attempt and got no argument from him or his team. They knew.

Here's another one.

when you click on this link (same as umpirecordova) look below and click on the cincinnati/chicago one that says dropped 3rd strike

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=14886823

For those in the know (not me) let's hear how this 3rd strike is handled from the MLBUM, MiLB, NCAA, NF, LL, etc etc.--Follow this tape all the way and notice how the batter is clearly a couple steps in the grass on the way to the dugout and has no intentions of going to first since he thinks the ball was not in the dirt and he is out, until he hears his team tell him to run.

Also for those who work at all the different levels and those who just went to the umpire schools---how do the mechanics for this play work at each level?

PU points and says "Yes he did". He did that part right. Then, should signal safe while saying "No catch". This way all know what to do next and that play is not over. Staying quiet was the worst thing he could do b/c it looks like he didn't know if it hit or not. And, the crew screwed up b/c batter should have been out once he left the circle with no intentions. At that point, PU should point at him and say "Out" with maybe a "No attempt" in there.

The PU messed it up all the way around. It didn't look like he knew what he was doing at all.

Added after 2 comments below

Not a help call.

2BU umpire, just like a play for 1BU must judge runner beating the play or not, and also judging if fielder is off the bag when ball pops the glove or is player on the bag when ball pops glove. No need for help. Make the call. Listen to manager who disagrees, do not get help if he asks, and eject if he crosses the line. Looks like the argument is just about the runner beating the play anyway and not about getting help on whether on the bag or off the bag. Why do we have trouble with seeing the fielders foot touching the bag but never the runners foot touching the bag. How can we always be straight-lined for one but not the other?

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...ent_id=14908537

I have him on the base. It was close but I don't think he was off the base. And, even the announcers weren't harping on that and second guessed themselves about "Owing [u2] an apology". I think he was out on that play though it was close.

[Mr Umpire]

Good Call on Downs by Marquez.

On the Reds game...I have a strike out in MLB. He had left the dirt circle.

In LL, game on. He had not entered the dugout.

Not sure in other codes.

The dirt circle is OBR ???

Rule 6.09(bee) Comment: A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and

who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle

surrounding home plate.

[mstaylor]

Yes, they changed that a couple of years ago, once you leave the circle you are out. Plus he didn't show a safe signal to show the ball is alive. On the elbow call, absolutely the right call, even in NCAA. I will and have made that call.

[mazzamouth]

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Do you think this was the right call? I thought it was a good call in a crucial part of the game. Would you make the same call?

That is a great call, tough, and most amateur umpires are scared to make this call. He sold it really well too.

[mazzamouth]

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Yes. And, I have when a batter just stood completely still on a very slow pitch and watched it hit his foot. I kept him in the box for no attempt and got no argument from him or his team. They knew.

But if the batter is completely within the lines and freezes, you should award him the base.. I think you are splitting hairs on this one.... if the batter makes an attempt to get hit, leave him there... but in your case you should have awarded him 1st.

[SnareDrum]

That is a great call, tough, and most amateur umpires are scared to make this call. He sold it really well too.

Indeed a great AND tough one because it virtually guarantees an argument. Maybe some would put this under their category of "I wouldn't make that call because I don't want trouble." I believe the rule says the batter must make an attempt to "avoid the pitch", not "attempt to get out of the way," and this has been interpreted by many over the years as just about any movement and coached accordingly at all levels. (I don;t have books nearby, but I think a set clarifies further by saying the batter "shall not allow the pitch to hit him" or something like that).

In this case the way this batter did it, yes, I would have made the same call. I've had two this season already. One where the batter didn't move at all, and the other he turned slightly and stuck his leg out. No, not scared. The judgment of the umpire in determining the attempt to avoid is the key, and I've seen a few pro games where the batter barely twitched and off he goes to first after getting dotted. Like the announcer said, you never see that call.

In the vid, I DO like seeing Crew Chief Ed Rapuano hovering in the frame. That sends multiple messages. ...and good job by Marquez.

[Mr Umpire]

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Yes. And, I have when a batter just stood completely still on a very slow pitch and watched it hit his foot. I kept him in the box for no attempt and got no argument from him or his team. They knew.

But if the batter is completely within the lines and freezes, you should award him the base.. I think you are splitting hairs on this one.... if the batter makes an attempt to get hit, leave him there... but in your case you should have awarded him 1st.

It was not a freeze. It was men's ball, not kid ball. And, he knew what he did b/c no one said a word. In fact, a teammate said "He does that about 2 or 3 times a month". He didn't move into the pitch, but he didn't attempt to move from it either. It wasn't a misjudge of where it was going or not enough time to move. Not even a flinch, just a matter of watching where is it going to actually hit him.

There was no splitting hairs.

[Guest]

On a HBP where you want to bring the batter back for not moving, ask yourself - "who screwed up?"

The box is 6 inches away from the edge of the plate and the person of the batter is almost certainly (with the exception of hands, elbows, etc) much further away from that. In the context of the strike zone, 6 inches is a significant amount of distance, let alone 10-12-14. The pitcher messed up by missing that badly.

Unless he leans into it, send the batter 90 feet on his way.

[SnareDrum]

This is one of those threads that veers off a little for good reason.

"If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched. " (6.08 B) Note: nothing about attempting to get out of the way... subtle slight difference, but still a difference.

The batter in the video did not avoid because he raised his arm (seemingly) intentionally into the path of the ball. Yes, in his and the manager's eyes, he attempted to get out of the way. To that umpire, the batter did not avoid being touched. If a batter freezes, that is also not avoiding being touched. NOT awarding a batter a cheap base is probably one big reason why this sentence (and it's a paragraph all by itself) went into the rules many, many decades ago. It also gives generations of pitchers the confidence that they can at least try to come inside, especially if the batter is crowding the plate, and puts the burden on the batter to at least attempt to avoid being touched. This rule is a basic part of baseball history and to some extent, folklore. IMHO, it really should not be ignored, and it's disrespectful to the game and also to some extent, me.

Most of the time, it's just an HBP and the batter is on his way. Part of the game. But if in my judgment he does not avoid being touched... it usually doesn't take much... or of course leans into it, he stays.

[TNCoach]

On a HBP where you want to bring the batter back for not moving, ask yourself - "who screwed up?"

The box is 6 inches away from the edge of the plate and the person of the batter is almost certainly (with the exception of hands, elbows, etc) much further away from that. In the context of the strike zone, 6 inches is a significant amount of distance, let alone 10-12-14. The pitcher messed up by missing that badly.

Unless he leans into it, the batter 90 feet on his way.

Not trying to be smart, but if you make that call as the umpire, wouldn't you be the one who screwed up by sending him as that is what the rule is. Yes, it is a smart play. Coaches teach kids to do what the MLB player did here. A coach's job is to win and teach. The player's job is to play hard and win. The umpire's job is to cut through all the crap that coaches and players throw out there to get the call right according to the rules. If an umpire were to start umpiring according to cliches I would lose respect for him. If an umpire were to ever tell me a tie goes to the runner, that is where I might get ejected for the first time because I would have to tell him that is about the craziest thing I have ever heard an umpire say.

An umpire's job is not to judge who screwed up. I mean if a batter hits one to the fence but stops to tie his shoe before running, are you going to give the outfielder a couple of extra seconds to throw the kid out before he gets to base because he screwed up? As a coach I have seen numerous times a player has screwed up and it went my team's way.

[Guest]

On a HBP where you want to bring the batter back for not moving, ask yourself - "who screwed up?"

The box is 6 inches away from the edge of the plate and the person of the batter is almost certainly (with the exception of hands, elbows, etc) much further away from that. In the context of the strike zone, 6 inches is a significant amount of distance, let alone 10-12-14. The pitcher messed up by missing that badly.

Unless he leans into it, the batter 90 feet on his way.

Not trying to be smart, but if you make that call as the umpire, wouldn't you be the one who screwed up by sending him as that is what the rule is. Yes, it is a smart play. Coaches teach kids to do what the MLB player did here. A coach's job is to win and teach. The player's job is to play hard and win. The umpire's job is to cut through all the crap that coaches and players throw out there to get the call right according to the rules. If an umpire were to start umpiring according to cliches I would lose respect for him. If an umpire were to ever tell me a tie goes to the runner, that is where I might get ejected for the first time because I would have to tell him that is about the craziest thing I have ever heard an umpire say.

An umpire's job is not to judge who screwed up. I mean if a batter hits one to the fence but stops to tie his shoe before running, are you going to give the outfielder a couple of extra seconds to throw the kid out before he gets to base because he screwed up? As a coach I have seen numerous times a player has screwed up and it went my team's way.

I see absolutely no relevance to this entire post. I indicate right at the end of my previous post that if the batter leans in to a pitch that otherwise would not have hit him, keep him at the plate.

What're you getting at?

[grayhawk]

I know this discussion has been with OBR but I thought I would add a little Fed flavor. I believe, without looking that Fed is worded such that the batter shall not "permit the ball to touch him" or something similar. What my instructors have told us is that if the ball hits the batter (even if he's a statue), then send him to 1st. If the batter hits the ball (with his body), then keep him at bat and call the pitch a ball or strike as the case may be. Don't allow him to lean into it or throw an appendage at the ball hoping to be awarded a base. What Downs did is a perfect example of the batter hitting the ball with his elbow.

I had a HS game last week where the batter stood as a statue and was hit in the arm on a poorly thrown curve. I sent him to 1st. I believe part of the thought process is that if a guy just stands there, he may be fooled on the pitch and think it's going to break. We're not mind readers, so unless he takes an action to try to get hit, then give him his base.

[dumbdumb]

Heck TNCoach

You are only 12 miles from Dale Ford in Jonesborough.

Call him to work one of your games. I am sure he will be glad to help you with any rules and interpretations you see from the video highlights. He will give you the who,what,when where,why---anything you want to know.

He will also probably tell you what he expects out of coaches at the amateur level versus at the pro level. Just go ahead and try him on anything during one of your games that you want to do, or anything you might be teaching your players to do. See what he would do and why.

You are so close it would be a shame to not pick the mind of a former MLBU and looks to be a current NCAA guy on everything with baseball. Plays, sportsmanship, gamemanship, rulings, rules, situations, just anything you want to throw at him, I am sure he will help you all you want and need.

And holy cow, after googling it looks like he is probable your very own Tennessee House of Representative also.

Once again, if he were that close to me, I would just go ask him about anything that comes up on this board and what the MLBU used to do and how he does it with the NCAA and the difference between the two. Anybody who ran Earl Weaver at the plate as soon as the anthem is done is OK by me.

[mstaylor]

Getting frozen by a fast ball running in on him is one thing. Watching a 70MPH curve ball come in and hitting him is another. NCAA has a rule that says as long it is in the box and the batter doesn't go after then he has to do nothing to avoid. Fine, that is their rule so send them to first. In OBR and Fed, he has to do something, not a lot but something. Sending him for doing nothing in an OBR or Fed is just not doing your job.

I certainly agree to give the batter the benefit of the doubt but you can tell most of the time what they are doing.

[TNCoach]

On a HBP where you want to bring the batter back for not moving, ask yourself - "who screwed up?"

The box is 6 inches away from the edge of the plate and the person of the batter is almost certainly (with the exception of hands, elbows, etc) much further away from that. In the context of the strike zone, 6 inches is a significant amount of distance, let alone 10-12-14. The pitcher messed up by missing that badly.

Unless he leans into it, the batter 90 feet on his way.

Not trying to be smart, but if you make that call as the umpire, wouldn't you be the one who screwed up by sending him as that is what the rule is. Yes, it is a smart play. Coaches teach kids to do what the MLB player did here. A coach's job is to win and teach. The player's job is to play hard and win. The umpire's job is to cut through all the crap that coaches and players throw out there to get the call right according to the rules. If an umpire were to start umpiring according to cliches I would lose respect for him. If an umpire were to ever tell me a tie goes to the runner, that is where I might get ejected for the first time because I would have to tell him that is about the craziest thing I have ever heard an umpire say.

An umpire's job is not to judge who screwed up. I mean if a batter hits one to the fence but stops to tie his shoe before running, are you going to give the outfielder a couple of extra seconds to throw the kid out before he gets to base because he screwed up? As a coach I have seen numerous times a player has screwed up and it went my team's way.

I see absolutely no relevance to this entire post. I indicate right at the end of my previous post that if the batter leans in to a pitch that otherwise would not have hit him, keep him at the plate.

What're you getting at?

I just always see the question "who screwed up?" It has no relevance on what call you make. I see lots about coaches having little sayings that they go by that they think are rules. I just see the question, "Who screwed up?" as being the same. That should not affect your call. That's what I am getting at.

[TNCoach]

Heck TNCoach

You are only 12 miles from Dale Ford in Jonesborough.

Call him to work one of your games. I am sure he will be glad to help you with any rules and interpretations you see from the video highlights. He will give you the who,what,when where,why---anything you want to know.

He will also probably tell you what he expects out of coaches at the amateur level versus at the pro level. Just go ahead and try him on anything during one of your games that you want to do, or anything you might be teaching your players to do. See what he would do and why.

You are so close it would be a shame to not pick the mind of a former MLBU and looks to be a current NCAA guy on everything with baseball. Plays, sportsmanship, gamemanship, rulings, rules, situations, just anything you want to throw at him, I am sure he will help you all you want and need.

And holy cow, after googling it looks like he is probable your very own Tennessee House of Representative also.

Once again, if he were that close to me, I would just go ask him about anything that comes up on this board and what the MLBU used to do and how he does it with the NCAA and the difference between the two. Anybody who ran Earl Weaver at the plate as soon as the anthem is done is OK by me.

Actually Dale is a friend of mine. We have shared family members though we aren't related because it is by marriage. If you look at his wikipedia page, my name is on there as well. I have asked him about calls in the past, but usually when we are talking it is over political issues.

He was my state rep, but I moved a couple of years ago and live just outside the district that I formally ran in.

[yawetag]

We have shared family members

Dale, I don't need my father for a while. Why don't you take him for a bit?

[TNCoach]

He has a cousin that is married to my aunt... that is funny though.