jimurrayalterego

You need to make a video of yourself doing that and ending in a comfortable foot position to come set or windup and upload it. I'll then give you a head's up that I won't balk it because I have never seen a pitcher do that and if you succeed, I would not be watching your feet that closely to determine you never broke contact.

It is black and white in OBR and making the out at 1B a force still has the tie going to the runner as OBR corrected that wording some time ago but if you want to make the force change in FED and NCAA the tie would no longer go to the runner at 1B. But while you are at the winter meeting or whatever meeting changes rule wording please include your Foul Definition edit also.

That is clunky but if you remove it how would you disallow a run in your OP with the remaining verbiage?

I don't see where the comment says "still engaged with the rubber". The comment says the pitcher can step and feint to 3B unless he "wheels". Wheeling off the free foot with the pivot foot not landed off the rubber is not a disengage and is illegal.

The step must be direct. After one step from the rubber it is no longer direct. But if you accept MLB interps, back in 2000 Carl Childress asked PBUC and the said the pitcher must leave the rubber when feinting to 3B in order to turn and throw to 1B. Don't ask who or what those people are. Look it up.

"More than anything, why would it be impossible in the second case, which is the same as the first, to take a step towards 1B?" It's not the same. A legal 3-1 feint to 3B involves a step with the free foot, the pivot foot coming off the rubber and landing. Then with the pivot off the rubber F1 can then step with the free foot toward 1B and throw. A wheel move never has the pivot foot land and F1 steps toward 3B and wheels toward 1B. "Why" I would ask you why and what rule requires this?

The reference comes from back when you could feint to 3B in the comment to 8.05(c) in 2012 and previous OBR. The "wheel" move is illegal. References to stepping off include the pivot foot being dragged of in the step to the base which normally happens. While remaining engaged while stepping to a base is unwieldy the wheel move involved not much of a step while actually turning toward 1B. "Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk." Also your statement, "First, if you're engaged, you have to step off the rubber and only then you can throw to a base.", is not correct.

Apparently, not simply perfect.

You would not enforce the delay of game rule unless you judged a deliberate attempt to delay. A step from the rubber to 2B, FED and LL 2B and 3B, with a runner there or going there is a legal feint whether a fielder is there or not. If the pitcher stepped to the base and threw to the SS in position because he incorrectly thought he might get balked or because he felt like not stopping his arm motion it's not delay of game or anything else aside from codes with pitch clock rules. A dissengage and throw to a fielder off the base with a runner there is also nothing.

All three codes mistakenly use "force" in maybe one reference citing the play at 1B. FED had it in past interp or caseplay. We don't get upset over people calling it a force but might explain that it is covered when a run scores as a different out than a force. It's a fine line between educating and being pedantic.

Were the three balks with umpires you knew or associated with and did you try to correct their misunderstanding then or even after you got our cites? If not just acknowledge in thread that you weren't sure the three balks were major kicks of an infielder legally throwing to a fielder and if there was no disengagement your reference to 6.02(a)(4) would not make it a balk for an engaged pitcher.

So, @834k3r, @BigBlue4u, @JimmyK have slinked off, not acknowledging their misunderstanding of the rules. Or perhaps for reinforcement of their errors which can come from their cohorts saying everybody knows that's a balk.

You do need to know. The applicable rule in OBR is 6.02(a)(2) which prohibits feints to first or third but not second. But if you still have doubts we can cite the Major League Baseball Umpire Manual (MLBUM) which has interps and clarifications for their rules. My Bold: "60. BALK REGULATIONS Rule 6.02(a): A balk shall be called audibly (“Balk!” or “That’s a balk!”) and by pointing laterally at the pitcher. However, the ball is not dead automatically when this call is made. The ball becomes dead only when the umpire calls “Time” following the call of balk, and the call of “Time” is to be made only when play stops (i.e., when it is apparent that all runners including the batter-runner will not advance one base). REGULATIONS: (a) The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to a fielder who is either in front of or behind first or third base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at that base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first or third base in this situation. (Also see next paragraph in this section.) (b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a legal pickoff at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to a fielder, who is neither in the vicinity of the bag nor making an actual attempt to retire the runner." NCAA is the same as OBR. High School still allows feints to 3B also.

Yes, a fanboy might argue time of stick.

The criteria is pretty straight forward from the MLBUM: "17. LODGED BALL Rule 5.06(b)(4)(F): A ball is considered lodged if, in the judgment of the umpire, the natural tra jectory of the flight of the ball is interrupted long enough to affect further play. A batted ball that sticks in a fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines located on the playing field should be considered a lodged ball. Likewise, a ball that goes behind a field tarp or wall padding without leaving the playing field should also be con sidered to be lodged and the same two base award applies. The determination of whether a ball is lodged is subject to Replay Review." BUT, what isn't clear is whether it is TOP or Time of stick. Eg: earlier in 5.06 they specify last base legally touched on a catch and carry. Anybody got a cite that specifies TOP.

That makes sense. He starts to turn away just as the signal is being made.

Uh, he and I say "Hike" in less than 1 second and then do the physical mechanic which the batter is not looking at most of the time. I think the problem is with me and him not marrying the signal, me never having a problem but in this case the batter hearing something thinks it's a grunt with the umpire down which they always know is a ball, except for me, Wegner and some other MLB ump

I heard "HIKE". I'm guilty of not marrying verbal and visual (can't change old habit) and have never had a problem but perhaps the separation can cause a problem if MLB batters have not been exposed to it. I only know of one other MLB ump that I noticed doesn't marry and I can't remember his name. If an MLB batter hears something while the ump is still down he's probably thinking what was said was "no", "up", or "ball".

No,

I didn't see any vocal and wouldn't expect it. The absence of a verbal "out' should be enough of a verbal clue. But a signal is needed when you have a ball hitting the glove and a runner touching the bag. Porter hears ball hit glove and sees runner touch after that. Runner heard the ball hit the glove and thinks he's gonna be out and actually looks at Porter as he overruns by him. Porter then looks for secure possession and sees ball in the air. He then gives a casual safe signal which may or may not have been seen by runner but everyone knew what happened. If you "make no call" you might be interpreted as seeing no touch by the runner.

Only FED allows the pitcher to remain engaged, awkward as that might be, in the third to first move. As @noumpere said, when feints were allowed to 3B in OBR and NCAA you had to break contact in feinting to 3B before feinting or throwing to 1B.

Young, yes. Cause of death not mentioned. Why I do not know. There is no shame and we can take that info to self inform. Many of our doctors are behind the curve and one example for your heart health is testing for LPa, LDc/APOb ratio. What did a young 68 year old die from?

NFHS does have it right for their cohort of well schooled to unschooled umpires regarding this and dead ball balks.

need to merge @dumbdumb' s post. Do we have 6.01 (a)(5) or 6.01(a)(10)? MLB will be along shortly to explain the no call this summer on the runner jumping and this call with the runner jumping.

Thread trending to this.