Why can't he just TELL HIM ???

[Thunderheads]

Why can't Joe West just tell Gardenhire what he has .....and no, ...I mean more than just waving his hands at him quickly doing the 'foul tip' mechanic ??? Why is it so hard? And he wonders why people can't stand him ???????/

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14647593

[jim knight]

He had a foul tip strike.... what else would you want him to tell the Manager? Are you thinking that Ron did not know the call?

[mstaylor]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

[Rich Ives]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

Gardy thought it was not tipped. (Me too). He was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Meantime, back at the plate, JW was almost in "I dare you" mode. "Step on the dirt and I'll toss you". How pro is that?

[Mr Umpire]

Ask who? Someone over 90 feet away? I heard what sounded like it may have hit something before getting to the glove. Sounds like the correct call to me. It looks like he gave Ron a chance to not get tossed but that is arguing balls/strikes. It falls under that and Gardenhire knew it was called a strike.

I have to say Joe West was correct in the call, the warning, and the ejection for walking through that warning.

After watching the 0:24 part of it a few times, I don't hear what I heard in the beginning of the video. It is easier to listen after about 5 replays and closely listening to see if it hit. But, when the start of it was, I thought I heard a separate sound on the 1st play. But, that may not be the case after SEVERAL replays to see if I heard it correctly the 1st time.

[jjb]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

Gardy thought it was not tipped. (Me too). He was mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Meantime, back at the plate, JW was almost in "I dare you" mode. "Step on the dirt and I'll toss you". How pro is that?

What would you do, if you you called a strike on a batter, and the coach came screamimg out of the dugout to argue?

Not a big fan of JW, but I'd do the same...

[yawetag]

I think it's obvious what West had -- the batter foul tipping the ball.

[Rich Ives]

I think it's obvious what West had -- the batter foul tipping the ball.

No one is disputing that he called it that way. The dispute was whether or not it was correct.

[Rich Ives]

What would you do, if you you called a strike on a batter, and the coach came screamimg out of the dugout to argue?

Not a big fan of JW, but I'd do the same...

Gardy wasn't screaming.

Just toss him, don't go through the "I dare you" bit.

[jjb]

The " I dare you, bit" is your interpretation. It's mine that he was warning Gardenhire not to come out and argue a strike call. West was under absolutely no obligation to "get help", any more than he is obligated to :get help" on a called strike. He made a judgement call, end of story. The whole thing seemed pretty tame to me.

[mstaylor]

There is nothing to get help on, he gave him a stop sign, he went through it, he got tossed. Where is the discussion? I don't always agree with what Joe does but in this case you have a manager arguing balls and strikes, which he knows he can't do. Joe warned him not to keep coming, he did, bang. To top it off, Joe used a little finger not a big finger.

[mtnump]

There is nothing to get help on, he gave him a stop sign, he went through it, he got tossed. Where is the discussion? I don't always agree with what Joe does but in this case you have a manager arguing balls and strikes, which he knows he can't do. Joe warned him not to keep coming, he did, bang. To top it off, Joe used a little finger not a big finger.

+1

[zm1283]

There is nothing to get help on, he gave him a stop sign, he went through it, he got tossed. Where is the discussion? I don't always agree with what Joe does but in this case you have a manager arguing balls and strikes, which he knows he can't do. Joe warned him not to keep coming, he did, bang. To top it off, Joe used a little finger not a big finger.

Yep, and Larry Bowa trashed umpires once again today on the MLB Network and used this play as an example. Said how West was unprofessional, should have gotten help, shouldn't have tossed Gardenhire because of Gardenhire's history in the game and because of how good of a manager he is. It was pure B.S. straight from a rat's mouth.

[Thunderheads]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

I only saw him do it once, and I was watching live on MLB network ...but maybe I missed something ....if JW did it 3 times, then, ok ....

I just don't see where this had to lead to an EJ ?? All I'm asking is, ...could JW have done this a different way instead of just standing there behind F2 ....

RG: Joe, what the hell is going on? Can you get help ??

JW: Ron, ...no, I'm not asking for help, I've got a foul tip, period, ...discussion over

THEN ..... if it continues, toss him....

Sorry, ...I'm just not a confrontational umpire, ...I don't LOOK for it, ...and it seems like JW "looks" for a reason to toss people ... doesn't make sense to me, ...but that's me :2cents:

[dumbdumb]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

I only saw him do it once, and I was watching live on MLB network ...but maybe I missed something ....if JW did it 3 times, then, ok ....

I just don't see where this had to lead to an EJ ?? All I'm asking is, ...could JW have done this a different way instead of just standing there behind F2 ....

RG: Joe, what the hell is going on? Can you get help ??

JW: Ron, ...no, I'm not asking for help, I've got a foul tip, period, ...discussion over

THEN ..... if it continues, toss him....

Sorry, ...I'm just not a confrontational umpire, ...I don't LOOK for it, ...and it seems like JW "looks" for a reason to toss people ... doesn't make sense to me, ...but that's me

How about watching this video--like MST mentioned--what do you want him to do (and yes, I understand you are just asking a question and not arguing), he gave Gardenhire every chance to stay in the game. You can get the play by play from the mild mannered Larry Bowa, someone who would never ever argue with an umpire, and always showed umpires respect, and never tried showing an umpire up ever, ever. Larry loved umpires and showed them total respect at all times, and rarely argued, just like Earl Weaver. You knew when Larry argued, he was 150% right every time and the umpire was 300% wrong.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14650327&c_id=min

Yes, Joe could have done it differently. He could have capitulated to Ron and gone and asked for help, which would have played right into Ron's hands of checking and getting help on everything, even when you should not get help. Ron knew exactly what was going on and that there was an excellent chance he would get ejected. However, he wanted to back his player and wanted to make sure his player did not get run complaining to Joe. Pretty much cut and dried ejection here. Everyone did what they felt they had to do. No big deal whether it was Joe or anyone else who might have had to run Gardenhire. This just happens, and it is just part of the game. Gives everyone something to talk about, doesn't it?

And yes, I realize no umpire is perfect, just as players and managers are far from perfect. Once again, all umpires are being highly scrutinized for their performance each game. There are several categories, which were mentioned by Solomon in an article about how they evaluate umpires for post season assignments, before baseball took him out of that position. Joe and the other MLBU are being evaluated each and every game on their performance, and those with the best scores will be offered post season assignments.

[Thunderheads]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

I only saw him do it once, and I was watching live on MLB network ...but maybe I missed something ....if JW did it 3 times, then, ok ....

I just don't see where this had to lead to an EJ ?? All I'm asking is, ...could JW have done this a different way instead of just standing there behind F2 ....

RG: Joe, what the hell is going on? Can you get help ??

JW: Ron, ...no, I'm not asking for help, I've got a foul tip, period, ...discussion over

THEN ..... if it continues, toss him....

Sorry, ...I'm just not a confrontational umpire, ...I don't LOOK for it, ...and it seems like JW "looks" for a reason to toss people ... doesn't make sense to me, ...but that's me

How about watching this video--like MST mentioned--what do you want him to do (and yes, I understand you are just asking a question and not arguing), he gave Gardenhire every chance to stay in the game. You can get the play by play from the mild mannered Larry Bowa, someone who would never ever argue with an umpire, and always showed umpires respect, and never tried showing an umpire up ever, ever. Larry loved umpires and showed them total respect at all times, and rarely argued, just like Earl Weaver. You knew when Larry argued, he was 150% right every time and the umpire was 300% wrong.

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...650327&c_id=min

Yes, Joe could have done it differently. He could have capitulated to Ron and gone and asked for help, which would have played right into Ron's hands of checking and getting help on everything, even when you should not get help. Ron knew exactly what was going on and that there was an excellent chance he would get ejected. However, he wanted to back his player and wanted to make sure his player did not get run complaining to Joe. Pretty much cut and dried ejection here. Everyone did what they felt they had to do. No big deal whether it was Joe or anyone else who might have had to run Gardenhire. This just happens, and it is just part of the game. Gives everyone something to talk about, doesn't it?

And yes, I realize no umpire is perfect, just as players and managers are far from perfect. Once again, all umpires are being highly scrutinized for their performance each game. There are several categories, which were mentioned by Solomon in an article about how they evaluate umpires for post season assignments, before baseball took him out of that position. Joe and the other MLBU are being evaluated each and every game on their performance, and those with the best scores will be offered post season assignments.

I dont' have to watch the video, I was watching live on MLB network, I saw it and all the discussion around it. P.S. Bowa is a douchebag. But, ....back to it...

I'm not suggesting that JW ask for help, ...I'm just saying that it seemed that it "could" have been different...that's all .....

Walk up to RG like a man, and say, "Ron, ... I've got a foul tip, period, and NO, I'm not asking for help, ..that's it, done, ...".

Instead of standing there like a bully saying "I dare you" ...[not literally] but, ..you know what I mean !

I'm not saying JW was wrong necessarily, all I'm saying is, ... could he have done it DIFFERENTLY?? NOT ASK for help, but could he have done it differently?

[dumbdumb]

He showed the foul tip mechanic three times, then had a discussion with him, then he tossed him. What else do you suggest Joe do?

I only saw him do it once, and I was watching live on MLB network ...but maybe I missed something ....if JW did it 3 times, then, ok ....

I just don't see where this had to lead to an EJ ?? All I'm asking is, ...could JW have done this a different way instead of just standing there behind F2 ....

RG: Joe, what the hell is going on? Can you get help ??

JW: Ron, ...no, I'm not asking for help, I've got a foul tip, period, ...discussion over

THEN ..... if it continues, toss him....

Sorry, ...I'm just not a confrontational umpire, ...I don't LOOK for it, ...and it seems like JW "looks" for a reason to toss people ... doesn't make sense to me, ...but that's me

How about watching this video--like MST mentioned--what do you want him to do (and yes, I understand you are just asking a question and not arguing), he gave Gardenhire every chance to stay in the game. You can get the play by play from the mild mannered Larry Bowa, someone who would never ever argue with an umpire, and always showed umpires respect, and never tried showing an umpire up ever, ever. Larry loved umpires and showed them total respect at all times, and rarely argued, just like Earl Weaver. You knew when Larry argued, he was 150% right every time and the umpire was 300% wrong.

http://mlb.mlb.com/v...650327&c_id=min

Yes, Joe could have done it differently. He could have capitulated to Ron and gone and asked for help, which would have played right into Ron's hands of checking and getting help on everything, even when you should not get help. Ron knew exactly what was going on and that there was an excellent chance he would get ejected. However, he wanted to back his player and wanted to make sure his player did not get run complaining to Joe. Pretty much cut and dried ejection here. Everyone did what they felt they had to do. No big deal whether it was Joe or anyone else who might have had to run Gardenhire. This just happens, and it is just part of the game. Gives everyone something to talk about, doesn't it?

And yes, I realize no umpire is perfect, just as players and managers are far from perfect. Once again, all umpires are being highly scrutinized for their performance each game. There are several categories, which were mentioned by Solomon in an article about how they evaluate umpires for post season assignments, before baseball took him out of that position. Joe and the other MLBU are being evaluated each and every game on their performance, and those with the best scores will be offered post season assignments.

I dont' have to watch the video, I was watching live on MLB network, I saw it and all the discussion around it. P.S. Bowa is a douchebag. But, ....back to it...

I'm not suggesting that JW ask for help, ...I'm just saying that it seemed that it "could" have been different...that's all .....

I'm not saying JW was wrong necessarily, all I'm saying is, ... could he have done it DIFFERENTLY?? NOT ASK for help, but could he have done it differently?

"Personally", to answer your question, no, what happened, happened and I would have done what Joe did with the warnings and hand up telling Gardenhire not to come out, but yes, of course he could have just let it go and not ejected him. Anyone can just let them run all over you and not eject if you do not want too. However, IMHO, that would be wrong, and I personally would have done exactly what Joe did, and yes taken the heat for it.

Now, lets have others who went to the Dale Carnegie course's (how to win friends and influence people) tell how they would have handled it differently, kept the player from getting upset, kept Gardenhire from even asking and kept him from even comming out of the dugout, without trying to say there was no foul tip at all.

[Thunderheads]

"Personally", to answer your question, no, what happened, happened and I would have done what Joe did with the warnings and hand up telling Gardenhire not to come out, but yes, of course he could have just let it go and not ejected him. Anyone can just let them run all over you and not eject if you do not want too. However, IMHO, that would be wrong, and I personally would have done exactly what Joe did, and yes taken the heat for it.

Now, lets have others who went to the Dale Carnegie course's (how to win friends and influence people) tell how they would have handled it differently, kept the player from getting upset, kept Gardenhire from even asking and kept him from even comming out of the dugout, without trying to say there was no foul tip at all.

I love this site, but it really irques me when [not YOU necessarily dumbdumb] but in general, most people side with whatever the pro does on the field. I really bugs me. And, for some reason, ...no one is reading what I'm writing. So, ...please ...pay attention:

Did I say he shouldn't have tossed him? NO

Did I say he should have kept the player and Gardenhire from getting upset? NO

Gardenhire comes and asks ...you can see him.... "Joe, ...Joe" ..... Take a couple steps towards Ron and say.... Ron, stop right there, ..I have a foul tip, and I"m not asking for help .... just TALK to him for a second, ....instead of just standing there ...

Nothing Dale Carnegie about it

[Mike Prince]

Gardenhire got the foul tip mechanic as well as the stop sign multiple times, and he kept coming - easy EJ. Gardenhire's body language wasn't all that positive coming out of the dugout either which didn't help his case. The call was already clearly explained, there was no discussion or appeal to be had there (that's like appealing a check swing strike trying to get it changed to a ball). Gardenhire would have been better off going to Valencia to calm him down so he didn't get run.

[Thunderheads]

Gardenhire got the foul tip mechanic as well as the stop sign multiple times, and he kept coming - easy EJ. Gardenhire's body language wasn't all that positive coming out of the dugout either which didn't help his case. The call was already clearly explained, there was no discussion or appeal to be had there (that's like appealing a check swing strike trying to get it changed to a ball). Gardenhire would have been better off going to Valencia to calm him down so he didn't get run.

I can see that!

[Mr Umpire]

I love this site, but it really irques me when [not YOU necessarily dumbdumb] but in general, most people side with whatever the pro does on the field. I really bugs me. And, for some reason, ...no one is reading what I'm writing. So, ...please ...pay attention:

Did I say he shouldn't have tossed him? NO

Did I say he should have kept the player and Gardenhire from getting upset? NO

Gardenhire comes and asks ...you can see him.... "Joe, ...Joe" ..... Take a couple steps towards Ron and say.... Ron, stop right there, ..I have a foul tip, and I"m not asking for help .... just TALK to him for a second, ....instead of just standing there ...

Nothing Dale Carnegie about it

Well, at our level, it can be done different. You can walk to the coach a little and explain that it is your call and no help will be asked. But, this is not the level of baseball we call. There is a completely different mindset between umpires and managers/players. If he does anything different, then the managers/players will have a completely different view of him. So, at MLB's level, no, it couldn't be done different.

For 1, that is a show. Managers/players/umpires are all part of it.

And, 2, their viewpoint of how things need to be handled is different. JW has to handle him that way or he loses respect with all around him at that level.

MLB is not the level where the coaches/players are just trying to learn the game in all aspects. They are at the level of trying to pull out all the stops and working an umpire is one of them. College and HS is the same but not on their level and usually, not on TV. Rec has a few but they are not as good as they think. Only, not all the umpires are good at being an umpire and they get away with thing that good umpires won't even think twice about.

Plus, and this is a major point, things done at the MLB level are not necessarily to be mimicked at levels below it. It is a show and umpires are part of it. Their job is to put a$$es in the seats and get the TV turned on. In many aspects, this being one of them, DO NOT follow their lead. But, it does make for good conversation, doesn't it? If so, they did their job.

[Thunderheads]

That's great Mr. Umpire ...that's a great response,..thanks for that! :)

[mazzamouth]

Joe signaled the Foul tip right away.. what else do you want Joe to do?

[mazzamouth]

Sorry, ...I'm just not a confrontational umpire, ...I don't LOOK for it, ...and it seems like JW "looks" for a reason to toss people ... doesn't make sense to me, ...but that's me

Trust me when i tell you these guys do not look for reason to throw guys.. that requires paperwork after the game.. I JW has been out there the last few yrs, but they don't go looking for EJ's.

[mazzamouth]

Yes, Joe could have done it differently. He could have capitulated to Ron and gone and asked for help, which would have played right into Ron's hands of checking and getting help on everything, even when you should not get help. Ron knew exactly what was going on and that there was an excellent chance he would get ejected. However, he wanted to back his player and wanted to make sure his player did not get run complaining to Joe. Pretty much cut and dried ejection here. Everyone did what they felt they had to do. No big deal whether it was Joe or anyone else who might have had to run Gardenhire. This just happens, and it is just part of the game. Gives everyone something to talk about, doesn't it?

And yes, I realize no umpire is perfect, just as players and managers are far from perfect. Once again, all umpires are being highly scrutinized for their performance each game. There are several categories, which were mentioned by Solomon in an article about how they evaluate umpires for post season assignments, before baseball took him out of that position. Joe and the other MLBU are being evaluated each and every game on their performance, and those with the best scores will be offered post season assignments.

No JW did every thing right.. this is why umpires are having problems... this is not one of these times we go for help.. stop doing this..and handle your business... JW did it right, and told RG that he had a foul tip, and he did not want to get help..

there is no way a umpire from over 110 feet away is gonna help him.