Four Umpire Crew - Mechanics

[johnnyg08]

Here's a video of what ultimately is judged to be a foul ball. In this four umpire crew, what could be done differently/better to improve the maddening situation that ensued due to poor mechanics? 

https://youtu.be/LQykVCRUG0g

[BLWizzRanger]

What am I missing here? Poor mechanics?

The pitcher kicks the ball - fair ball - or it hits the rubber and doesnt cross the foul line - fair ball, right?

PU moves up and signals fair and gets back into the slot to call safe or out. Mechanics are fine, IMHO

They kicked it when they changed the ruling. What am I missing?

[Velho]

Went down and off the batter.

PU didn't have it but a BU (looks like U3 to me) had did - though he didn't call it immediately. Usual pregame, in my experience, is "if BU has it off the batter, give PU a beat and then call it if they don't"

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

that ensued due to poor mechanics?

This isn’t due to “poor mechanics”, per se. This is the fatal flaw of a combination of 3 “elements mixed at improper levels”, with the volatility of tribalism making everything more chaotic and intense. 

Element 1: The emphasis placed on umpires to “get the call right”.

Element 2: The imbalanced burden of “calling responsibility” placed on the PU at moment (or we could say – interval) of pitch.

Element 3: The lack of an Official Review System (of the play(s)). 

What I’m sure happened is that U3 called Foul – however loudly/clearly or not – because he – from his vantage point – interpreted the batted ball to be off the foot.

The pieces add up – the ball is batted straight down and “kicks” forward. The batter doesn’t leave the box. And, F2 is… tentative(?) about fielding it (did he see/hear it off the B’s foot?). Obviously, the PU didn’t see/hear/perceive it to be off the foot, hence why he didn’t call it that way, instead, keeping the play live. There’s a lot going on here to “load” upon the umpires’ (plural) processors. This must be the end of the game, with less than 2 outs. This has likely been a tense game, as well, Pitch comes in, big swing with a metal bat (they’re loud ), and the ball trampolines off the ground. [Element 2] 

Knowing this, about Element 2, some BUs factor in Element 1 more earnestly and eagerly than others, and try to be helpful. So, what they see / hear / process from 100+ ft away takes over, and they “call it”. Now, granted, if U3 had immediately “come up big”, and called / signaled foul by dashing down the line and “waving guys off”, he’d have likely sold it, and there wouldn’t be the “chaos and madness”. 

However… 

This is where Element 2 once again snaps its jaws and shreds these situations – Who has “primary authority / responsibility” on this? That whole “don’t step on your Plate guy’s d!€k” crude anecdote. There’s that pause, or reservation, or hesitancy – “I perceived <this>, I’m going to wait to see if my PU saw it too, he didn’t and nowOhNoTheMomentIsSlippingAwayFOUL!” (hands go up in Time mechanic). Now it’s too late, and we have bedlam. Let’s say that F3 had thrown to F2 in time, and tagged out R2, what then? Or that R2 remained at 3B only? We’d still have bedlam, but the offensive team would be pleading (3BC for sure, Batter, etc) that it hit his foot, and didn’t… didn’t U3 see it?! Surely U3 saw it!! He mechanic’d “Foul!”, didn’t he?!?! 

Know what fixes this? Element 3, Video Review. I know it’s lacking on this particular game because of the ferocity with which the DHC approaches the PU. If Official Video Review was present, then there’d be gestures and genuflecting towards consulting the video; there isn’t. All the outrage is organic. 
I understand, Video Review can’t afford to be everywhere, on each and every game. I’ve been in these exact situations, and I can honestly say, as all 4 roles – Plate Umpire, BU who “perceived something” and called it, CC who wasn’t directly involved, but had to mitigate and explain it all, and observer / supervisor watching it, either in the moment (like, in the stands or press box) or post-game. 
I don’t rightly know how to “fix it” to “improve it”, short of implementing Element 3. Of course, I have my opinions on Element 2, but that’s for another post. 

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

What am I missing here? Poor mechanics?

The pitcher kicks the ball - fair ball - or it hits the rubber and doesnt cross the foul line - fair ball, right?

PU moves up and signals fair and gets back into the slot to call safe or out. Mechanics are fine, IMHO

They kicked it when they changed the ruling. What am I missing?

Yep, sorry, much clearer on a laptop screen than a phone.  

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

This isn’t due to “poor mechanics”, per se. This is the fatal flaw of a combination of 3 “elements mixed at improper levels”, with the volatility of tribalism making everything more chaotic and intense. 

Element 1: The emphasis placed on umpires to “get the call right”.

Element 2: The imbalanced burden of “calling responsibility” placed on the PU at moment (or we could say – interval) of pitch.

Element 3: The lack of an Official Review System (of the play(s)). 

What I’m sure happened is that U3 called Foul – however loudly/clearly or not – because he – from his vantage point – interpreted the batted ball to be off the foot.

The pieces add up – the ball is batted straight down and “kicks” forward. The batter doesn’t leave the box. And, F2 is… tentative(?) about fielding it (did he see/hear it off the B’s foot?). Obviously, the PU didn’t see/hear/perceive it to be off the foot, hence why he didn’t call it that way, instead, keeping the play live. There’s a lot going on here to “load” upon the umpires’ (plural) processors. This must be the end of the game, with less than 2 outs. This has likely been a tense game, as well, Pitch comes in, big swing with a metal bat (they’re loud ), and the ball trampolines off the ground. [Element 2] 

Knowing this, about Element 2, some BUs factor in Element 1 more earnestly and eagerly than others, and try to be helpful. So, what they see / hear / process from 100+ ft away takes over, and they “call it”. Now, granted, if U3 had immediately “come up big”, and called / signaled foul by dashing down the line and “waving guys off”, he’d have likely sold it, and there wouldn’t be the “chaos and madness”. 

However… 

This is where Element 2 once again snaps its jaws and shreds these situations – Who has “primary authority / responsibility” on this? That whole “don’t step on your Plate guy’s d!€k” crude anecdote. There’s that pause, or reservation, or hesitancy – “I perceived <this>, I’m going to wait to see if my PU saw it too, he didn’t and nowOhNoTheMomentIsSlippingAwayFOUL!” (hands go up in Time mechanic). Now it’s too late, and we have bedlam. Let’s say that F3 had thrown to F2 in time, and tagged out R2, what then? Or that R2 remained at 3B only? We’d still have bedlam, but the offensive team would be pleading (3BC for sure, Batter, etc) that it hit his foot, and didn’t… didn’t U3 see it?! Surely U3 saw it!! He mechanic’d “Foul!”, didn’t he?!?! 

Know what fixes this? Element 3, Video Review. I know it’s lacking on this particular game because of the ferocity with which the DHC approaches the PU. If Official Video Review was present, then there’d be gestures and genuflecting towards consulting the video; there isn’t. All the outrage is organic. 
I understand, Video Review can’t afford to be everywhere, on each and every game. I’ve been in these exact situations, and I can honestly say, as all 4 roles – Plate Umpire, BU who “perceived something” and called it, CC who wasn’t directly involved, but had to mitigate and explain it all, and observer / supervisor watching it, either in the moment (like, in the stands or press box) or post-game. 
I don’t rightly know how to “fix it” to “improve it”, short of implementing Element 3. Of course, I have my opinions on Element 2, but that’s for another post. 

I don't know if video review fixes this exact scenario with the video that we have. But...sure...with credible video...that would be ideal. 

What would fix the madness is when the other three umpires on the field see their U3 calling "Time" or "Foul" to mirror that to try to slow things down a bit. Especially with a four umpire crew. 

PU doesn't have a great look at this...especially with three base umpires....he can let his guard down a bit and not try so hard to try and get it. 

A good pregame and better mechanics ultimately make the crew look more credible. 

BTW, I think they got it right...it just didn't look good, esp with four. 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

There’s that pause, or reservation, or hesitancy – “I perceived <this>, I’m going to wait to see if my PU saw it too, he didn’t and nowOhNoTheMomentIsSlippingAwayFOUL!” (hands go up in Time mechanic). Now it’s too late, and we have bedlam.

Adding to that, my struggle with this play is I'm about 50/50 getting it right from BU. Too many times I've thought it did and am about to come up big... but everyone moves on, no reaction from BR, F2 hesitation, nor PU call. It's made me gun shy to jump in and grab it.

[Velho]

20 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

What would fix the madness is when the other three umpires on the field see their U3 calling "Time" or "Foul" to mirror that to try to slow things down a bit. Especially with a four umpire crew. 

💯

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Adding to that, my struggle with this play is I'm about 50/50 getting it right from BU. Too many times I've thought it did and am about to come up big... but everyone moves on, no reaction from BR, F2 hesitation, nor PU call. It's made me gun shy to jump in and grab it.

Yes! In a two person crew from A...U1 has to be VERY careful with LH batters. It's a bit easier with RH hitters from A. 

I've worked with a couple of partners over the years who killed it on LH batters and I had a look as PU and it 100% did not hit them. That's a hard bell to unring. 

[Velho]

29 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

That's a hard bell to unring. 

Couple that with PU's "Coach, I don't need to check with my partner(s). I already did" [because we pregamed that if you have it as BU, after a beat of PU not grabbing it, you'll call it]. But as @MadMax said you hesitated and now it's too late, or is it? oh crud.. And you may ask yourself, "Well, how did I get here?"

[BLWizzRanger]

And you may ask yourself, "Well, how did I get here

"

Same as it ever was.

[BigBlue4u]

11 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Here's a video of what ultimately is judged to be a foul ball. In this four umpire crew, what could be done differently/better to improve the maddening situation that ensued due to poor mechanics? 

This is not a mechanics question, it's a rules question.  Why did the umpires call this a foul ball?

[BigBlue4u]

1 minute ago, BigBlue4u said:

This is not a mechanics question, it's a rules question.  Why did the umpires call this a foul ball?

Upon further review, apparently the issue was did the batted ball hit the batter? If an umpire is not sure what happened, the usual suggestion is to watch the reaction of the batter.  This batter, by his reaction, is telling me the ball hit him.  That is why he makes no effort to advance to first base.

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

This is not a mechanics question, it's a rules question.  Why did the umpires call this a foul ball?

The crew had a foul ball in the box. 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

That is why he makes no effort to advance to first base.

Sure, that’s a valid clue. However, the PU has a pitch inbound, a swing, contact, and has to immediately if not expediently pick up where the ball is, and judge Fair/Foul. 

That’s within a second, if at most – at most – two seconds. I do not put blame on a PU for not reading a “minor”, or “secondary” clue like that. 

B(R)’s failure to run was likely a significant, contributing clue to U3. From his vantage point – angle, primarily – and B(R) not running, plus with possibly a sound, or the way which the ball deflected (if it did), his brain “did the math” and it equaled “Foul (in the box)”. 

Where I have trouble with this play / situation / action isn’t mechanics, it’s (inter-crew) dynamics. I’m not saying that PU got hyper-fixated on “My, my, my (call, responsibility, authority)”, but it sure did seem like he “kept to his own sandbox”, and didn’t even look / listen for his crewmates. Then, as @johnnyg08 notes, the other BUs didn’t echo / mirror U3, either. It shouldn’t take that. U3 should be louder / more assertive, but if either of the two other BUs had come up with the Time mechanic, then it ain’t a matter of “slowing things down”, it would have stopped it dead. I’ll take a minor derailment – a single axle or car coming off the rail – and a correction, than having the train go over the cliff and having a debacle. 

Correct or incorrect (regarding the ball touching the B(R)), once U3 calls “Foul”, it – whatever the action – cannot be rectified. It has to stay Foul forever. It’s like that crap the NFL does, that they let things (completely) play out on a possible turnover, and then review it. Since this game doesn’t have Review, there’s no recourse, and there should not be reservation by the crew members – definitiveness should be the order of the day. 

Edited Saturday at 01:04 AM by MadMax
Forgot “not” (bold)

[grayhawk]

It's okay to delay a couple of seconds to gather ALL of the information necessary to get the call right. Ball hit straight down, tons of spin on it, batter making no attempt to run. It's the last part, the batter not running that should seal it. Once you've made your decision...

COME UP HUGE! No sense in being timid about it. Hands up, "TIME TIME TIME!!!" Keep saying it and move into the infield with urgency. Imagine the difference between that and what U3 did in this game. My guess is that he just doesn't have the experience to be confident in this situation. Reps reps reps.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

No sense in being timid about it. [snip] ... My guess is that he just doesn't have the experience to be confident in this situation.

Unless he's been exclusively around, or in an association, with these toxic, alpha-dog types who are all espousing, "My call" and "don't step on yer partner's (ie. my) d!¢k*", as some kind of sacrosanct doctrine. Hearing that tripe and 💩 gets old, and either gets ya p!$$ed off (like me), or timid. 

[noumpere]

22 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

The pitcher kicks the ball - fair ball - or it hits the rubber and doesnt cross the foul line - fair ball, right?
 

Wrong.  (Recognizing that what you think you saw is not what happened; but that even if it was you'd have the wrong interp)

[BLWizzRanger]

Wrong.  (Recognizing that what you think you saw is not what happened; but that even if it was you'd have the wrong interp)

Ok, I will bite. A batted ball that hits the rubber and bounces back past the foul lines (between the 1st/3rd base and home plate) is not foul? In and of itself and not considerating what I missed with the ball hitting the batter in the box?

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Ok, I will bite. A batted ball that hits the rubber and bounces back past the foul lines (between the 1st/3rd base and home plate) is not foul? In and of itself and not considerating what I missed with the ball hitting the batter in the box?

 

On 5/22/2026 at 8:42 AM, BLWizzRanger said:

The pitcher kicks the ball - fair ball - or it hits the rubber and doesnt cross the foul line - fair ball, right?
 

Well, it's one or the other. 

[Velho]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

A batted ball that hits the rubber and bounces back past the foul lines (between the 1st/3rd base and home plate) is not foul?

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

it hits the rubber and doesnt cross the foul line - fair ball

 

3 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Well, it's one or the other. 

The top two statements aren't contradictory.