Throwing through dead ball territory (and an almost Bingo card moment)

[The Man in Blue]

I will start with "I don't like doing this" . . . however there is a rural school that I cannot get to until just before game time.  I don't like doing this, but the school and the assignor both know this and still keep asking to have me back.  The game there today was moved due to rain, but still a location that I am pressed to get to.

I pull into the parking lot, my partner acknowledges me, and goes to get the plate meeting going.  I do a Wonder Woman change and run up to the field.

My partner and the "visiting" coach (visiting team on their home field) are going toe to toe already.  This coach is that coach.  For a few moments, I thought we were going to get the "plate meeting ejection" marker on our Bingo card.  For a hot second, I wanted to pull that ripcord, but I figured I just got there, it would be a really bad look.

What they were going round and round on was the coach wanted the offset bullpens to be live, but allow a fielder in the corner to throw over the fences and through dead ball territory to make a play.  

The opposing coach was just standing there rolling his eyes.  They looked at me.  I said, "Well, the easy answer is to just go pole to pole and make the bullpens dead."  The argument when on for a few more moments with both of them leaving at talking to the area clinician.

 

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

Just wanted to see if anybody has a different take.

 

Coach tried a few other shady things during the game, but it wouldn't be one of his games if he didn't. 

[jimurrayalterego]

15 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I will start with "I don't like doing this" . . . however there is a rural school that I cannot get to until just before game time.  I don't like doing this, but the school and the assignor both know this and still keep asking to have me back.  The game there today was moved due to rain, but still a location that I am pressed to get to.

I pull into the parking lot, my partner acknowledges me, and goes to get the plate meeting going.  I do a Wonder Woman change and run up to the field.

My partner and the "visiting" coach (visiting team on their home field) are going toe to toe already.  This coach is that coach.  For a few moments, I thought we were going to get the "plate meeting ejection" marker on our Bingo card.  For a hot second, I wanted to pull that ripcord, but I figured I just got there, it would be a really bad look.

What they were going round and round on was the coach wanted the offset bullpens to be live, but allow a fielder in the corner to throw over the fences and through dead ball territory to make a play.  

The opposing coach was just standing there rolling his eyes.  They looked at me.  I said, "Well, the easy answer is to just go pole to pole and make the bullpens dead."  The argument when on for a few more moments with both of them leaving at talking to the area clinician.

 

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

Just wanted to see if anybody has a different take.

 

Coach tried a few other shady things during the game, but it wouldn't be one of his games if he didn't. 

I don't have a picture of what you describe. But I do know you can throw through a dead ball media area.

[NavyBlue]

 I have always considered that a ball that travels through the airspace above foul territory is not foul because of that, and a ball that travels through the airspace above dead ball territory is likewise not dead because of that.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Looking at the NFHS rule for a dead ball . . . "a pitch or other thrown ball . . . goes into a stand or other dead ball area or player's bench (even if it rebounds to the field) . . . "  So, yeah, throwing into dead ball territory is a dead ball.  There is no exception based on what happens after that (e.g., if it exits unimpeded).

So, a high foul ball that goes over DBT (eg. row ten of the stands behind the dugouts) and then is blown back to the field of play to be caught is "dead"??

Maybe it doesn't say so explicitly but my understanding was always that the condition making the ball dead was TOUCHING something in dead ball territory - the air not qualifying for "something".

Otherwise, by the standard you lay out, a player could never reach over a fence to make a catch, because it would always be dead by virtue of it having entered DBT.

[The Man in Blue]

18 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I don't have a picture of what you describe. But I do know you can throw through a dead ball media area.

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

[The Man in Blue]

8 hours ago, NavyBlue said:

 I have always considered that a ball that travels through the airspace above foul territory is not foul because of that, and a ball that travels through the airspace above dead ball territory is likewise not dead because of that.

 

I'm leaning on @jimurrayalterego and I'm leaning on you not disagree, but to challenge you and your thinking.  I believe you can work your way to either result.  I also went to the logic you and @beerguy55 present for a moment, but then I came back to . . . 

A batted ball and a thrown ball are different, with different defined statuses.  Yes, we know a batted ball can be caught over dead ball territory and can even go over DBT and blow back (I had a ball wrap around a light pole and come back for a catch).  However, a thrown ball is different.  A thrown ball is much more controlled and intentional, so a player is expected to exert that control and intentionality.  Penalties and rules on thrown balls carry the standard "thrown into dead ball territory".  I am finding nothing on allowing any different outcome based on the throw's exit of DBT.

Like I said, I believe you can present a case for either side.  Personally, I am coming down on the "no go" side, as batted and thrown balls are treated differently, and a designated media area and DBT are different things.

  

[jimurrayalterego]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

Back when OBR and NCAA allowed throwing from dead ball territory such as the dugout I they did not allow throws from the spectator area. This looks like the area could have spectators and, if so, I would not allow it.

[jimurrayalterego]

6 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Blue is the fence line.  Green is the proposed "allowed" throw over dead ball territory.

 

Case play 1.2.8 Situation B does allow a thrown ball over a designated media area.  While all designated media areas are dead ball territory, not all dead ball territory is a designated media area.  

Back when OBR and NCAA allowed throwing from dead ball territory such as the dugout I they did not allow throws from the spectator area. This looks like the area could have spectators and, if so, I would not allow it.

[The Man in Blue]

Are reporters (media) not spectators?  You can throw over them.  

I’m starting to come down on the “I’ll allow it” side, though I have no strong opinion either way.  A fielder is not in DBT until they touch something in DBT.  Air space isn’t the boundary.  

Well, maybe I have one strong opinion: the rulebook language doesn’t support it.  Simple fixes.  Language matters.

 

[jimurrayalterego]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Are reporters (media) not spectators?  You can throw over them.  

I’m starting to come down on the “I’ll allow it” side, though I have no strong opinion either way.  A fielder is not in DBT until they touch something in DBT.  Air space isn’t the boundary.  

Well, maybe I have one strong opinion: the rulebook language doesn’t support it.  Simple fixes.  Language matters.

 

The parson in the media area is expected to be aware of batted foul balls and throws. If the school allows it I wonder if they require some legalese from the users of the area. Spectators are advised to be aware but we don't expect it.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

The parson in the media area 

Sure.  But what about public school leagues?

[MadMax]

There has to be an angle that coach (henceforth TC) is working; in 95% of games, the coaches go with whatever the Umpire(s) direct what the ground rules are to be, unless it’s some one-off, highly unique-to-that-particular-venue characteristic. 
Example– we use all 15 MLB ST facilities in Phoenix for amateur games (adult, collegiate, and teenage), and the traditional ground rule is evoked of “do not mess with the tarp / tarp is dead”. Ball goes onto the tarp, it is deemed to be out of play. There is to be no elevating onto the tarp, etc. No coaches / managers have any problems or issues with these decrees; 

But baseball fields / parks / stadiums are not designed / constructed / laid out to be uniquely challenging to the participants – ie. this isn’t golf course architecture, where each course has its own signature layout and challenges. From the photo, you’ve got clearly defined sections, separated from the active playing field – regardless of immediate adjacency – that should be DBT, to make interpretation and playability as easy (and fair) as possible for all participants. 

So if this coach, who is custodian of this ballpark, is soooooo insistent that those bullpens should be Live, we need to ask “Why?” What’s the angle, here? Is he hoping to achieve triples and ITPHRs from balls bounding in there? Has he trained his players to pursue fly (foul) balls into there to catch them, and get easy outs? 

Keep in mind, too, that both teams should have submitted their lineup cards to the PU at the plate meeting, prior to the establishment of the ground rules. The umpire(s) (UIC, specifically) is the final authority on the ground rules, so the home HC can’t “take his ball and go home” just because he doesn’t get his way on the ground rules. 

[The Man in Blue]

This guy always has an angle, because he is that guy.  It is all about a power play with him.

In this case, the angle is 90-degrees, fence to fence where the pole is. 😉

This has been a fascinating conversation.  I am not tracking, but the answers from credible sources I have posed this to this week have been pretty much 50-50.

[beerguy55]

On 4/17/2026 at 4:23 PM, The Man in Blue said:

A batted ball and a thrown ball are different, with different defined statuses. 

I did consider this in my original response and opted not to stand up a straw man to respond, and only deal with the response if it came up.

My only argument is trying to fathom a scenario where an umpire would ever rule a wild throw "dead" even though the other player managed to reach their glove over (or beside) a fence with their glove in DBT to save the ball from touching DBT - ie. applying a different standard to those two plays based on batted vs thrown ball.

Though pitched, batted and thrown balls all have their own provisions in the rules, I've seen nothing in the rules to indicated that a thrown ball only need to enter DBT's airspace to become dead where a batted ball needs to touch a person/object in DBT.

On 4/18/2026 at 4:43 PM, MadMax said:

So if this coach, who is custodian of this ballpark, is soooooo insistent that those bullpens should be Live, we need to ask “Why?” What’s the angle, here? Is he hoping to achieve triples and ITPHRs from balls bounding in there? Has he trained his players to pursue fly (foul) balls into there to catch them, and get easy outs? 

Maybe there's an angle...I think it's more likely that following the non-drawn line from the point of the bullpen to the corner has probably created way too many problems/arguments about whether the ball did or did not enter DBT, not to mention a unnecessary number of GRD's, rather than simply using the fence as the boundary.

[The Man in Blue]

@beerguy55 I’ll have to pull up language later to post, but I am basing my approach on (my belief that) all language starts with “thrown into dead ball territory.”

Let me add another wrinkle that I tossed in while continuing to discuss this locally ….

Coach King of It All wants to allow the throw through/over dead ball territory.  OK.  Now his player makes that throw and hits the light pole which is clearly in DBT.  Now we are awarding bases due to his “angle.”

[The Man in Blue]

 

Did it go into a dead-ball area?  Yes.  This states "even if it rebounds to the field" which supports the "once you are in, you are in" theory.  (On the other side, you could also say it adds an element to the argument of "it needs to hit something.")

Did it go over the field fence?  Yes.  No doubt about this.  

So we have a dead ball on both counts.

 

  

 

[beerguy55]

13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Did it go over the field fence?  Yes.  No doubt about this.  

So we have a dead ball on both counts.

By that logic...immediately before that paragraph:

f. a fair batted ball:

1. touches a runner or an umpire before touching any fielder and before passing any fielder other than the pitcher,
2. touches a runner after passing through or by an infielder and another infielder could have made a play on the ball,
3. touches a spectator,
4. goes over or through or wedges in the field fence, or
5. lodges in players equipment or uniform; or

To my original post, applying the same standard, as the same language appears for both batted and thrown balls, the fly ball that goes over the fence and then blows back into play is dead, even if it lands fair.  This, taken literally, would also disqualify anyone reaching over the fence to steal a home run.

We know that simply isn't true.

And the reason nothing is explicit under a foul batted ball about DBT is because the only condition really needed to make a foul batted ball dead is for it to hit anything but a fielder...so it doesn't matter if it's in DBT or not.  The discussion would then be about what nullifies a catch, as a caught foul ball is live.

If we want to get really silly nothing in 5.1.1f addresses the rare case of a fair batted ball going into the dugout, or any other designated dead ball area (except media in 5.1.1l).

And if you read the Immediate Dead Ball Table just after 5.1.4 all the cases of a batted ball bounding or flying over a fence don't mention the requirement to touch DBT.

So, again, by that same language, you'd need to treat thrown and batted balls the same...they're either both dead or neither or dead, when they simply pass the fenceline.

 

 

13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

This states "even if it rebounds to the field" which supports the "once you are in, you are in" theory. 

"Rebound" requires the ball to hit something...if it said "continues to the field" you might have a case.

 

15 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Coach King of It All wants to allow the throw through/over dead ball territory.  OK.  Now his player makes that throw and hits the light pole which is clearly in DBT.  Now we are awarding bases due to his “angle.”

Yup - FAFO.