"If he comes through there again like that?!?! YOU TAKE CARE OF THAT!"

[SeeingEyeDog]

So, the above quote was shouted by an assistant coach on a play he felt defensively he should have gotten an FPSR call on. 2-man, my partner and I discussed it and both of us had the runner to the inside of the bag veering further inside and the fielder outside the bag taking the throw, getting the force out and with a clear throwing lane to 1B, inexplicably he crosses over to the inside of the bag deliberately initiating contact to draw an FPSR violation. I was plate coming up on the 3B base side of the mound. I saw the veering. I saw the crossing over and I gave a safe sign and said, "That's nothing..." to try and preventatively umpire it but, I have my back to the 3B dugout. I'm sure they didn't hear me or see my safe sign. I don't really want to discuss the merits of the play...

After we got together and discussed it, we confirmed the call. That's when the assistant coach yelled the above quote in the subject line loud enough for all to hear. I warned the head coach immediately. He was clearly embarrassed and turned around and told his assistant to knock it off.

I have difficulty sometimes separating my Dad/Parenting judgement from my umpire judgement. If that had been my kid that coach was threatening, I would have not been pleased. Whether my kid was doing what he was supposed to be doing on that play or not...a grown man making a threat like that is sub-optimal. The warning held and we had no issues for the rest of the night. It's still nagging me....he was an assistant...the bar is lower...

Brothers, should I have just dumped him? Did I miss an ejection here?

~Dawg

[MadMax]

So you’re saying that F4/6 purposely maneuvered himself, seeking out the R1’s path of egress / avoidance, so as to draw a FPSR violation? When did he throw the ball (if ever) to 1B? 

If that’s the case, this isn’t unprecedented – this happens all the f#€king time in basketball (amateur especially), wherein an offensive player goes out of their otherwise normal, expected way to draw contact and a foul. It’s one of the 2 primary reasons I do not officiate basketball, despite  having played college basketball myself. 

To whom was Ass-Co addressing his barbed message? “His” fielder(s)? I don’t think you missed an Ejection, simply because it wasn’t warranted based on how you did handle it, and what resulted – the HC chastised the Ass-Co, and the kids didn’t perform anything stemming from that message, or “gauntlet he threw down”. 

Some twenty years ago, I visited my Alma mater HS while they were hosting a huge football game, acting as the neutral site for two “city” schools. With my uncle as part of the chain gang, and a few of my fellow former HS players as staff at the school, I was on the sidelines. On the sideline I was standing, the HS program was all “dialed in”. HC looked like one of those long-time college coaches, the linebackers coach looked like he was in the WWE, the lineman coach looked like he could lift the team bus, and they had, like, 3-4 players on the sidelines relaying signals to their respective teammates out on the field. There was one coach in particular that struck me rather odd – he was, what had to be, the secondary (defensive backs) coach. Everything about him screamed “(recently) former college D-back”. I will not forget this event, reinforced by the intensity with which it was expressed. 
There was a play coming towards the sideline, wherein the QB was trying to evade or escape the tackling grasp of one of the non-secondary players, and at the conclusion of the play, that D-backs coach stepped over the sideline and screamed at his four defensive backs, “YOU HAVE TO BLOW HIM UP!! BLOW HIM UP!! TAKE YOUR SHOT AND BLOW HIM UP!!!” 
These were high school kids, and you’ve got an adult implying by directive to (attempt to) knock a player out of the game. 

No cautioning from an official, no admonishment (at the time) from a fellow coach… 

[834k3r]

11 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I was plate coming up on the 3B base side of the mound. I saw the veering. I saw the crossing over and I gave a safe sign and said, "That's nothing..." to try and preventatively umpire it but, I have my back to the 3B dugout. I'm sure they didn't hear me or see my safe sign. I don't really want to discuss the merits of the play...

I think everything is fine, but would you have less chance of being straight-lined had you come up the 1B side? Doesn't seem it was a factor this time, but could be?

[SeeingEyeDog]

@MadMax, apologies...yes, this was similar to a basketball "draw charge" kind of play. He released the ball UNHINDERED AND UNIMPEDED as he was moving from the outside of the bag to the inside of the bag. The contact happened AFTER the release but, of course, all the defensive coaches WANT to see (because they don't understand the rule) is contact. This was also similar to a college play from last year where R3 had a clear lane to run to the plate but veered INTO the pitcher fielding a bunt. Plate ruled obstruction on the fielder and awarded R3 home when, due to the veering, it should have been ruled interference by the runner, in my opinion.

@834k3r, this business of the 2-man mechanic with R1 and a ball in the infield is a curious case. There seems to be a lot of national discussion on this to include my association. U1 is taking the turn of the DP and can absolutely call FPSR if he sees it. Sometimes U1 doesn't see the FPSR. My association mechanic is for plate to come up on 3B side of the mound (to the best of their ability) and look at the play at 2B, assisting U1. This also provides an opportunity if the play is busted at 2B, typically on a throw from the left side of the field which sends the ball deep into the right side of the field, to get an umpire to 3B to cover a play there. Even the most athletic U1 is starting this in B and will struggle to get a good look at a play into 3B. If plate has come up like they should, he's in a better position.

On this play, I saw the play. I was not flatlined but, there could absolutely be instances where plate could be flatlined there on the 3B side of the mound. Coming up on 1B side of the mound would get plate a better view and leave a play into 3B vulnerable to sub-optimal coverage from the crew. 2-man...there's compromises all over the place. We know this.

Another thing to consider is, pulled foot/swipe tag support when the play goes into 1B. So, I've heard another version of this that says, there are more close plays at 1B in this situation then there are busted plays that then go into 3B. (I would like some statistics, please...) so, some groups want their plate coming up the 1B line as we would in other situations to potentially get RLI, pulled foot, swipe tag, etc.

~Dawg

[grayhawk]

53 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Another thing to consider is, pulled foot/swipe tag support when the play goes into 1B. So, I've heard another version of this that says, there are more close plays at 1B in this situation then there are busted plays that then go into 3B. (I would like some statistics, please...) so, some groups want their plate coming up the 1B line as we would in other situations to potentially get RLI, pulled foot, swipe tag, etc.

Personally, I think it's a much better mechanic to come up the 1B side. While your view of R1 sliding past the bag is worse, your view of R1's slide directly into the bag (or not) is much better. And as you already stated, your view of pulled foot/swipe tag is far superior from the 1B side.

[MadMax]

37 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

My association mechanic is for plate to come up on 3B side of the mound (to the best of their ability) and look at the play at 2B, assisting U1.

Your association has been influenced by or is inclusive of NCAA umpires. 

MiLB 2-man umpires are taught to go – silently – towards 3B in foul territory, solely in case of R1 being Safe and continuing to 3B. That's how fast everything happens in the professional game. If/when BU signals "Out" (of R1), then PU is to immediately stop and return to PoP. There is no (need to) cheat(ing) across the "front stage" (region between plate and pitcher's mound) so as to get back to the line for pulled foot / swipe tag; that is at least how it's taught (and supervised in MiLB). 

What that distills (or I suppose you could say "descends") into, at the amateur level, is PU typically gravitating towards 1BL, to (of course) assist on pulled foot / swipe-tag, but also to supportively observe the (amateur) FPSR at 2B. 

NCAA, however, knows the importance and particulars of (their) FPSR; therefore, they have directed (in 2-man) that PU is move towards the 3B side of the mound – in fair territory – and remain there, observing the entirety of the play at 2B (because FPSR violations can occur post-throw-to-1B). As an auxiliary responsibility, if R1 is safe, they are to take R1 on to 3B. 

In both MiLB and NCAA (specifically), TPTB put the onus of the call at 1B – safe/out, pulled foot, swipe tag, and ball-to-boundary – upon the BU; that's how much they invest on BU's to "process your AOR" in MiLB, or how much importance they place on (the particulars) of FPSR in NCAA. 

🤔 As I've said often, I have issues with compulsories or imperatives that are arbitrarily given. As an example, what are we (PU) to do on R1-R3, with less than 2 outs? Are we not supposed to go to the 3B side of the mound – in fair territory, mind you – so as to observe FPSR at 2B? Oh, but there's R3. We have to stay at Plate for that. But isn't FPSR so freakin' important that you demand that we go to that "magical space" when there's R1 only? But the presence of R3 changes that... so we're supposed to infuse an entirely different approach or preparation based solely on R3's presence? 

This introduces a deficiency in the system... if you drill into a BU/PU team that PU is to go to "the magic space" to observe 2B, then BUs learn that they've got supplemental coverage (on it), and learn that they can "release" that play at 2B and turn to focus on 1B. See where the problem comes into it? When you've got R1-R3, you (as a BU) don't have that supplemental coverage, and you're going to be bit on the a$$ on it. While it may seem harsh, I understand MiLB's directive to put all of the burden on BU, from the outset. The pressure solidifies the focus into familiarity. 

[BLarson]

I get the same kind of nonsense in youth flag football.

It's supposed to be no contact, but there's times where contact happens when the flag is pulled, or there's more than one defender going for flags.  Or the defender is directly in front of the ball carrier and reaches in for his flag and the momentum of the ball carrier makes contact.

Overzealous offensive coaches with a tackle mentality will yell..."Next time just run him over" or "Just run through him"

I throw a flag every time I hear it.   I issue a warning for unsportsmanlike behavior and the next one they are ejected.
These are 8-11 year old kids.   Enroll them in tackle football if you want to play tackle football.

 

[TheLovejoy]

   I’ve been instructed at my local association level to work up the 1st base line to watch the FPSR, and once we get a good look at the slide, to turn to 1st to help with the pull. The problem is the timing—slides into 2nd take longer, while the double play turn at 1st happens so quickly that we’re still locked in on the runner at 2nd while the 1st baseman is already receiving the throw, often without anyone truly focused on the pulled foot.

   Their philosophy is to only rotate to 3rd on balls out of the infield—always. Since this stays in the infield, it’s left entirely to the BU.

   That said, I’ve had instruction from a couple of sources I trust more—including one of the old pro guys who runs the AP Western States clinic, along with another instructional clinic—that teaches rotating to 3rd while still picking up the FPSR. That allows U1 to stay in a B position shaded toward 1st, giving him the best angle on the play at 1st. It also keeps the PU in position for a potential play at 3rd if the runner is safe at 2nd.

   It’s frustrating, because I end up working it one way for my local association and a completely different way when I’m doing semi-local college or summer wood bat league games.

   As for the play itself, I’m generally under the impression that intentional contact in any form is illegal under NFHS rules. Trying to draw a foul by initiating contact is still intentional contact. There’s a clear difference between not getting out of the way—or simply being in the way—and actively moving into contact. In my opinion, that warrants at least a warning to both the player and the coach.

[The Man in Blue]

To Dawg's handling of air traffic control . . . 

I don't think you missed the ejection, as much as I want to.  I've always handled these cases with "Coach, I'm issuing the warning.  If anybody does anything to engage in any play like that, they go and your assistant goes retroactively."

That said, if a game has already been chippy or aggressive (or even passive-aggressive), I would have no problem going straight to the dump button.