Feint & Throw

[Jack_Wick]

RHP

OBR

 

If you fake a pickoff to 2B, without stepping off your pivot foot from the rubber in doing so, you can no longer throw to any other base, including 2B?

So if you fake to 2B, your foot stays on the rubber, and you throw to 1B, would that be a balk? 

Instead if you fake towards 2B, but your foot stays attached while doing so, to throw the ball to 1B/2B/3B you should step off your foot from the rubber first or not? How? Rule reference?

[Jack_Wick]

 

@maven @noumpere

What do you think?

 

Thank you so much.

[Tog Gee]

I'll take a stab. Though I always coach my kids to disengage when picking off.

I think if you fake to 2B and somehow remain engaged, you can throw to 1 or 3 if you first step there with the free foot.

[Jack_Wick]

23 hours ago, Tog Gee said:

I'll take a stab. Though I always coach my kids to disengage when picking off.

I think if you fake to 2B and somehow remain engaged, you can throw to 1 or 3 if you first step there with the free foot.

I'm referring to the OBR rules here. I knew, and I was told here, that after you fake a pickoff  to 2B, you can't simply step and throw to another base or the same one. First, if you're engaged, you have to step off the rubber and only then you can throw to a base. What I'm looking for is a reference to this rule.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

I'm referring to the OBR rules here. I knew, and I was told here, that after you fake a pickoff  to 2B, you can't simply step and throw to another base or the same one. First, if you're engaged, you have to step off the rubber and only then you can throw to a base. What I'm looking for is a reference to this rule.

The reference comes from back when you could feint to 3B in the comment to 8.05(c) in 2012 and previous OBR. The "wheel" move is illegal. References to stepping off include the pivot foot being dragged of in the step to the base which normally happens. While remaining engaged while stepping to a base is unwieldy the wheel move involved not much of a step while actually turning toward 1B. 

"Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk."

Also your statement, "First, if you're engaged, you have to step off the rubber and only then you can throw to a base.", is not correct.

[Jack_Wick]

Excuse me, but isn't that contradictory?

 

"It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal."

"However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk."

More than anything, why would it be impossible in the second case, which is the same as the first, to take a step towards 1B?

 

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Also your statement, "First, if you're engaged, you have to step off the rubber and only then you can throw to a base.", is not correct.

Why?

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

Excuse me, but isn't that contradictory?

 

"It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal."

"However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk."

More than anything, why would it be impossible in the second case, which is the same as the first, to take a step towards 1B?

 

Why?

"More than anything, why would it be impossible in the second case, which is the same as the first, to take a step towards 1B?" It's not the same. A legal 3-1 feint to 3B involves a step with the free foot, the pivot foot coming off the rubber and landing. Then with the pivot off the rubber F1 can then step with the free foot toward 1B and throw. A wheel move never has the pivot foot land and F1 steps toward 3B and wheels toward 1B.

"Why" I would ask you why and what rule requires this?

[Jack_Wick]

Rule 8.05(c) Comment, however, says something completely different. It explains that whenever a pickoff (or fake) is required, the player must take a step toward the target base before throwing (or faking). It does NOT say that after a fake, the player must be disengaged at the rubber, absolutely not. In fact, it adds that the fake toward 3B must be justified by a runner attempting to steal home base. 

 

So, reexamining everything, we have this: 

Runners at 3B and 1B. Pitcher makes a legal pickoff fake toward 3B NOT to deceive R1 BUT to stop R3 from advancing. Then, even if he were still engaged at the rubber (AS the FED interpretation also states), he can turn (I believe in any direction, clockwise or counterclockwise). THE IMPORTANT THING is that before throwing there, he takes a step toward 1B. 

 

Therefore, I believe that the sequence of feinting to 2B > still engaged or not > turning, in any direction, > step to 1B or 3B, is absolutely legal. 

The rule just says this:

"It is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move, it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk."

In this second scenario above, it is illegal only because the pitcher: 

1. Fakes toward 3B without the runner doing anything but only to deceive R1. 

2. Then turns and does not step toward 1B.

 

So I believe this FED interpretation also applies to OBR as it is absolutely not in conflict with the above rule

.

"6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guil

ty of a balk"

 

[jimurrayalterego]

4 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Rule 8.05(c) Comment, however, says something completely different. It explains that whenever a pickoff (or fake) is required, the player must take a step toward the target base before throwing (or faking). It does NOT say that after a fake, the player must be disengaged at the rubber, absolutely not. In fact, it adds that the fake toward 3B must be justified by a runner attempting to steal home base. 

 

So, reexamining everything, we have this: 

Runners at 3B and 1B. Pitcher makes a legal pickoff fake toward 3B NOT to deceive R1 BUT to stop R3 from advancing. Then, even if he were still engaged at the rubber (AS the FED interpretation also states), he can turn (I believe in any direction, clockwise or counterclockwise). THE IMPORTANT THING is that before throwing there, he takes a step toward 1B. 

 

Therefore, I believe that the sequence of feinting to 2B > still engaged or not > turning, in any direction, > step to 1B or 3B, is absolutely legal. 

The rule just says this:

"It is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move, it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk."

In this second scenario above, it is illegal only because the pitcher: 

1. Fakes toward 3B without the runner doing anything but only to deceive R1. 

2. Then turns and does not step toward 1B.

 

So I believe this FED interpretation also applies to OBR as it is absolutely not in conflict with the above rule

.

"6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guil

ty of a balk"

 

The step must be direct. After one step from the rubber it is no longer direct. But if you accept MLB interps, back in 2000 Carl Childress asked PBUC and the said the pitcher must leave the rubber when feinting to 3B in order to turn and throw to 1B. Don't ask who or what those people are. Look it up.

[Jack_Wick]

The point isn't whether I accept it or not. I'm not the right person to have this authority. I'm just looking for an official answer to a fairly common game situation. I asked for a reference to an official rule, and you kindly provided it. BUT this reference actually says the action is legal. So where would this limit come from?

 

So we have Rule 8.05(c) Comment, which says that the sequence—faking a pickoff > still engaged at the rubber > turning and throwing to 1B/2B (again)/3B—is absolutely legal. 

Then we have Carl Childress asking PBUC if it's legal or not, and they say no. Do we have a scan or something official in writing about this request? Perhaps the meaning of their answer has been misunderstood.

I found this too but I can't confirm whether they were taken literally or not.

MLBUM: "Also, in the fake to third base, the pitcher must break contact with the rubber before throwing to first base."

 

JEA: "On the "trick 3rd to 1st" move used by the righthander, the umpire should be especially alert for two criteria:

(1) the pitcher may not break the back plane of the rubber with his free foot before attempting the feint to 3rd; and

(2) in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot.

Breaking the plane would be a balk in violation of 8.01(a) and failure to break contact would be a balk in

violation of 8.01(c)...not a direct step from the rubber ("while touching his plate")." 

So, in the official rules, the move is legal, but in various authors' interpretations or comments, it's not legal. But I don't understand what the point is in not making the play legal without the pitcher stepping off the rubber before throwing to the same base or another? What difference does that make?

22 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

The step must be direct. After one step from the rubber it is no longer direct.

I don't think it has anything to do with it. "Direct" means that the pass must be made directly to that base; it does NOT mean "first." Besides, the FED rules also say "direct," but the sequence without disengagement is legal anyway. So? 

 

Also, after faking a pickoff toward second base (still engaged on the rubber), what could you do? Could you only turn around and pitch the ball to the batter? But couldn't you make another pickoff if you didn't step off the rubber first? That doesn't seem very logical to me.

 

 

PS. Wouldn't it be better if they scrapped all these micro-rules and created ONE official rulebook with a few, precise rules? I mean it's such a popular sport, but there's such a monstrous regulatory dispersion.

[jimurrayalterego]

4 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

 

 

So we have Rule 8.05(c) Comment, which says that the sequence—faking a pickoff > still engaged at the rubber > turning and throwing to 1B/2B (again)/3B—is absolutely legal. 

 

 

 

 

I don't see where the comment says "still engaged with the rubber". The comment says the pitcher can step and feint to 3B unless he "wheels". Wheeling off the free foot with the pivot foot not landed off the rubber is not a disengage and is illegal. 

[Jack_Wick]

No, in reality the rule written above is decidedly unclear. In fact, another forum writes a question exactly like mine like this: 

"8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when- (c) 

[...]

rule wording you have quoted is somewhat confusing. A couple of Usenet umpire wannabes named Ryan Robbins and Scott Taylor drove Carl Childress right over the edge a few years ago debating this very point. The Robbins/Taylor mantra was, "This is legal." which they repeated ad infinitum. 

Despite the ambiguity in the rule and its casebook commentary, there is no ambiguity in the Jim Evans interpretation from his book, Baseball Rules Annotated, nor in the MLB Umpire Manual. Both resources clearly state the pitcher must break contact with the rubber in stepping to 3B when executing the "3rd to 1st" move." 

 

In short, I wasn't the only one who had legitimate doubts. 

So in summary we can say this:

From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:

 

  (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or

 

  (B) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or

 

  (C) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

 

 

 

So we can add for precision: BUT once the pitcher fakes a pickoff to 2B (if still engaged to the rubber) then he can only:

 

  (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or

 

  (B) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

 

 

 

 

The question can be considered closed but my question about Feint & Throw FED remains unanswered. Also the only question that remains is what's the ratio behind this rule addition? What's the point of necessarily having to remove the pivot foot first?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

So we can add for precision: BUT once the pitcher fakes a pickoff to 2B (if still engaged to the rubber) then he can only:

 

  (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or

 

  (B) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).

 

(A) is NOT true.

 

If the pitcher does not break contact with the rubber, then any move to another base or the plate is not direct / immediate (whatever the specific wording is). 

[Jack_Wick]

So? How does it all work? Keeping in mind that we're referring to OBR rules, how should we conclude? 

Once a pitcher has faked a pickoff to 2B (the only legal base to which it can be done) but hasn't broken contact with the rubber, what should he do? The only option left is option 😄 "disengage the rubber (if he does, he must drop his hand to his sides)." Or what?

 

Simply put, how does he reset his action? Because to make another pickoff, he simply steps off the rubber—okay, I understand that. But what should he do first to be able to pitch the ball to the batter again?

 

PS. What do you think of my Feint & Throw FED thread, please?

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Simply put, how does he reset his action? Because to make another pickoff, he simply steps off the rubber—okay, I understand that. But what should he do first to be able to pitch the ball to the batter again?

 

What does F1 do after he pitches, and then receives the ball back from F2?  What does F1 do if he throws to second and then gets the ball back from F4?  What does F1 do if the ball is hit and then eventually someone throws the ball back to him?

 

That's all the same thing F1 does after he breaks contact with the rubber during a feint to second.

[Jack_Wick]

17 hours ago, noumpere said:

What does F1 do after he pitches, and then receives the ball back from F2?  What does F1 do if he throws to second and then gets the ball back from F4?  What does F1 do if the ball is hit and then eventually someone throws the ball back to him?

 

That's all the same thing F1 does after he breaks contact with the rubber during a feint to second.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. The point here is: The pitcher legally fakes to 2B BUT DOES NOT break contact with the rubber, so now, without him stepping off the rubber first, what could he do? 

Basically nothing (throw or pitch) except disengage from the rubber? OR could he throw or fake again to 2B / throw to 1B/3B? I don't think so. BUT could he get back into position (he never left the rubber) and, after a brief pause, pitch to home?

I didn't quite understand the whole procedure before he was able to pitch to home plate again.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. The point here is: The pitcher legally fakes to 2B BUT DOES NOT break contact with the rubber, so now, without him stepping off the rubber first, what could he do? 

Basically nothing (throw or pitch) except disengage from the rubber? OR could he throw or fake again to 2B / throw to 1B/3B? I don't think so. BUT could he get back into position (he never left the rubber) and, after a brief pause, pitch to home?

I didn't quite understand the whole procedure before he was able to pitch to home plate again.

He needs to break contact, and go through the process of re-engaging the rubber, including dropping his hands before he does so.

[Jack_Wick]

44 minutes ago, noumpere said:

He needs to break contact, and go through the process of re-engaging the rubber, including dropping his hands before he does so.

Ok, perfect. So after a pitcher faked a pickoff to 2B (the only legal one) but is still engaged on the rubber, he can only disengage from the rubber. Without disengaging first, he cannot throw to a base or pitch to homebase, right? If so, that's it. Thank you very much.

[Jack_Wick]

On 11/29/2025 at 2:42 PM, noumpere said:

He needs to break contact, and go through the process of re-engaging the rubber, including dropping his hands before he does so.

A coach explained it to me differently. This applies to both Feint & Throw and Feint & Pitch (https://umpire-empire.com/topic/83267-feint-pitch/)

He told me that both Evans' and MLBUM's interpretations only explain the situation of a continuous action/movement of a fake to 2B and then a throw to 1B/3B. A continuous Fake>Throw motion would be illegal in OBR (not in FED), so it would require the pitcher to break contact with the rubber before throwing to 1B/2B/3B or faking to 2B again.  

But he explained to me that after a fake to 2B, in which a pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time, the pitcher could, without ever disengaging from the rubber, turn around, reposition himself (in set or windup position), pause, and then from there do whatever he wants again: pitch to home, pickoff feint to a base, disengage. Would this explanation be correct?

Essentially, the interruption of the feinting action towards 2B and the return to the normal throwing position consists of the repositioning and the pause but NOT necessarily the disengagement and reengagement in the ruber.

 

So both of the following sequences are legal:

First of all, in all this the pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time.

1. Legal feint to 2B > he turns and repositions himself (set or windup position) > he pauses briefly > he is back in a legal position from which he can pitch/throw/fake again. 

2. Legal feint to 2B > he steps off the rubber and then engages it > he can now pitch/throw/fake again.

 

Is he right? I'm so confused.

 

[noumpere]

42 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

A coach explained it to me differently. 

At some point, you're going to have to read the rules and decide for yourself.

Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one, and most of them stink.

[Jack_Wick]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

At some point, you're going to have to read the rules and decide for yourself.

Opinions are like assholes -- everyone has one, and most of them stink.

You're right, but in a game it should be legal or not, I don't think there's any room for opinion. So, is it absolutely necessary to step off the rubber and then re-engage with it before pitching to home plate, or not?

That is, if a pitcher, after making a legal fake pickoff, without ever breaking contact with the rubber, turns around, gets back into set or windup position, and then begins the pitching motion again, would it be a balk?

[jimurrayalterego]

7 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

You're right, but in a game it should be legal or not, I don't think there's any room for opinion. So, is it absolutely necessary to step off the rubber and then re-engage with it before pitching to home plate, or not?

That is, if a pitcher, after making a legal fake pickoff, without ever breaking contact with the rubber, turns around, gets back into set or windup position, and then begins the pitching motion again, would it be a balk?

You need to make a video of yourself doing that and ending in a comfortable foot position to come set or windup and upload it. I'll then give you a head's up that I won't balk it because I have never seen a pitcher do that and if you succeed, I would not be watching your feet that closely to determine you never broke contact.

[Jack_Wick]

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if it's something you don't see often or it's uncomfortable. The only thing that matters here is: is it legal or not? 

 

So, to summarize the question: 

 

A RHP faked a pickoff to 2B, never breaks contact with the rubber the entire time and never will. Now, from this position (now he is facing 2B) in OBR, he can't make another pickoff or another feint pickoff (legal in FED) in the same continuous movement (feint to 2B and in the same movement pickoff to 3B), and obviously he can't turn quickly to pitch to home plate. 

 

BUT, could he: 

1. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then resume his pitching motion? 

2. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then make a pickoff or a feint pickoff?

 

OR 

 

before either pitching to home plate or making another pickoff (or feint) does he MUST necessarily step off the rubber and then re-engage with it?

If so, what official rule or interpretation supports this?

[jimurrayalterego]

11 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if it's something you don't see often or it's uncomfortable. The only thing that matters here is: is it legal or not? 

 

So, to summarize the question: 

 

A RHP faked a pickoff to 2B, never breaks contact with the rubber the entire time and never will. Now, from this position (now he is facing 2B) in OBR, he can't make another pickoff or another feint pickoff (legal in FED) in the same continuous movement (feint to 2B and in the same movement pickoff to 3B), and obviously he can't turn quickly to pitch to home plate. 

 

BUT, could he: 

1. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then resume his pitching motion? 

2. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then make a pickoff or a feint pickoff?

 

OR 

 

before either pitching to home plate or making another pickoff (or feint) does he MUST necessarily step off the rubber and then re-engage with it?

If so, what official rule or interpretation supports this?

No video, no answer.

[BLWizzRanger]

11 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said:

No video, no answer.

It doesn't matter that there is no video.  Answer my question. If a wood chuck could chuck wood, would a wood chuck could chuck chuck wood without engaging in chucking wood with a wool covered saschuck chucking wood? 

[grayhawk]

On 12/1/2025 at 4:45 PM, jimurrayalterego said:

You need to make a video of yourself doing that and ending in a comfortable foot position to come set or windup and upload it. I'll then give you a head's up that I won't balk it because I have never seen a pitcher do that and if you succeed, I would not be watching your feet that closely to determine you never broke contact.

That was my answer before all of this ridiculousness started. Pitchers NEVER EVER EVER do this. They are made of bones and ligaments, not just cartilage. Making a legal step and feint to 2B using the inside move and staying in contact with the rubber would be absurd. Good way to break an ankle.