R3 only, 2-man, less than 2 outs on a 90' field

[SeeingEyeDog]

U1 starts this in C, of course. We have a high fly ball hit deep down the RF line. This ball is catchable and F9 is streaking to the line, glove out to try and make a catch somewhere in the vicinity of the line near that corner of the ballpark marked 300-ish...

We could have fair/foul, catch/no-catch and a tag-up (or not) at 3B. What are the umpires doing or how are they moving/positioning on this play? What are the umpires' specific responsibilities on this play?

~Dawg

[NVUmp]

Ball is plate’s responsibility.  Plate moves to 1B line extended to watch f/f, catch/no catch, attempt to have R3 in peripheral vision.   U1 moves to 1B side of working area for second set of eyes on ball, if ball is not caught, takes batter-runner around.    Once f/f, catch/no catch is determined, PU looks over to R3 for tag (U1 still has to get touch at 1B and possible play back in 1B if fair/not caught), additional info to tell if he tagged based on how far down the line he may be if at all.

It’s a limitation of two man system.  F/F, catch/no catch, plays with the ball, plays without the ball - lowest of the responsibilities.  

[noumpere]

Depending on the specific timing of the play, the skill of the umpires, and U1's ability to move, U1 can help with the tag-up at third.  He can move to a deep C type position to get U1 in his peripheral vision, or he can glance over his shoulder from B at the moment the ball is touched -- U1 can get eyes to R3 more quickly than PU can get his eyes there.  In all this, U1 has to be sure not to give up his primary responsibilities.

[The Man in Blue]

13 hours ago, NVUmp said:

Ball is plate’s responsibility.  Plate moves to 1B line extended to watch f/f, catch/no catch, attempt to have R3 in peripheral vision.   U1 moves to 1B side of working area for second set of eyes on ball, if ball is not caught, takes batter-runner around.    Once f/f, catch/no catch is determined, PU looks over to R3 for tag (U1 still has to get touch at 1B and possible play back in 1B if fair/not caught), additional info to tell if he tagged based on how far down the line he may be if at all.

It’s a limitation of two man system.  F/F, catch/no catch, plays with the ball, plays without the ball - lowest of the responsibilities.  

 

Not saying this is wrong, as I am not a mechanics guru . . . but that doesn't make sense to me.

If I am in C, I am quickly working my way into the infield, toward the pitchers mound so that I can see the catch and R3 (not my responsibility, but I want to have eyes on it).  From this position I have the BR touch at first with a quick glance, and any other potential play in front of me so I can work to another position (e.g., a play at second base).

As PU, I am coming a few steps up the line, trying to hold tight to it for a fair/foul call.  If I have to go off the line, I am choosing into the infield to keep an angle on the catch and the R3 with fewer obstructions between me and the play.  Once that catch is certain, I'm backtracking to 3B line extended for the play (if there is one).

I'm probably wrong.

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

As PU, I am coming a few steps up the line, trying to hold tight to it for a fair/foul call.  

I'm probably wrong.

Two schools of thought:

1) Go up the line o you are closer and the catch, and so F2 doesn't block you.  But, you have to look way over your left shoulder to see R3.

2) Back up on 1BLE so you are still on the line for fair/foul and have a less-than-90* turn to see R3.

Either can work, but whichever you choose, the gods will conspire so the other choice would have been better.

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Two schools of thought:

1) Go up the line o you are closer and the catch, and so F2 doesn't block you.  But, you have to look way over your left shoulder to see R3.

2) Back up on 1BLE so you are still on the line for fair/foul and have a less-than-90* turn to see R3.

Either can work, but whichever you choose, the gods will conspire so the other choice would have been better.

 

That part is confusing me.  And as I typed that, it dawned on me AHHH S#!+ . . . .  RIGHT FIELD . . . 

I'ma gonna' slink back to the line for snowcones now . . . 

Reading is fundamental.  I'm just fun and mental.

[jimurrayalterego]

Just to remind the BU, especially on tweeners, "I've got the line" or I'm on the line". I also tell my BU if he hears that I still have 3B tag up but if circumstances permit back me up.

[Replacematt]

For OBR and NCAA, the official answer is simple when you think of priorities: fair/foul, catch/no catch, then everything else.

PU moves up the 1B line as far as the play will allow, to give ample time to retreat back to the plate and be in position to make a call. PU will judge fair/foul and catch/no catch while BU takes a position to observe plays at all bases. 

What this means in practice is that PU will be getting R3's tag-up either in peripheral vision or by swiveling upon the completed catch. 

PU does not take this play from 1BLX. 

[DevildogUmp]

This is definitely a situation you need to pregame with your partner. My association teaches passing off the tag up at 3rd to the BU - PU calls "I'm on the ball" or "I'm on the line" letting his partner know BU now has the tag up at 3rd. 

PU - Moves up the line as far as he feels he can go and still retreat to the plate for a possible play. The further out the hit and/or the more athletic a play (full out sprint/diving catch) that the OF needs, the less likely a chance of a play at the plate which could allow PU to go out further (I think the 45' mark would be the absolute farthest I would ever go). As soon as PU has fair/foul and catch/no catch, it is back to the plate while glancing over the shoulder for the throw.

BU - Moves deep 'C' into the dirt to get the best view of first touch and the tag-up. It won't be perfect, but nothing in 2-man is. If the ball is not caught, it is an immediate busting into the working area. BU is looking pretty much directly at 1st base, so he has that touch and taking BR into 2nd.

[Replacematt]

37 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

This is definitely a situation you need to pregame with your partner. My association teaches passing off the tag up at 3rd to the BU - PU calls "I'm on the ball" or "I'm on the line" letting his partner know BU now has the tag up at 3rd. 

PU - Moves up the line as far as he feels he can go and still retreat to the plate for a possible play. The further out the hit and/or the more athletic a play (full out sprint/diving catch) that the OF needs, the less likely a chance of a play at the plate which could allow PU to go out further (I think the 45' mark would be the absolute farthest I would ever go). As soon as PU has fair/foul and catch/no catch, it is back to the plate while glancing over the shoulder for the throw.

BU - Moves deep 'C' into the dirt to get the best view of first touch and the tag-up. It won't be perfect, but nothing in 2-man is. If the ball is not caught, it is an immediate busting into the working area. BU is looking pretty much directly at 1st base, so he has that touch and taking BR into 2nd.

Who has the play at first if they throw behind R1?

[DevildogUmp]

Just now, Replacematt said:

Who has the play at first if they throw behind R1?

BU. That is why as soon as the ball is not caught, BU is busting back inside the working area.

[Replacematt]

37 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

BU. That is why as soon as the ball is not caught, BU is busting back inside the working area.

I'm talking about if the ball is caught--they wouldn't throw behind R1 on an uncaught ball.

[Richvee]

8 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

I'm talking about if the ball is caught--they wouldn't throw behind R1 on an uncaught ball.

The OP is R3 only. R1/R3 as U1 I would not move to deep C. I would need to move into the working area behind the mound. 

[Replacematt]

5 minutes ago, Richvee said:

The OP is R3 only. R1/R3 as U1 I would not move to deep C. I would need to move into the working area behind the mound. 

Doh. I was going between two threads and thought this was an R1/R3 situation.

[ilyazhito]

On 6/8/2025 at 9:53 PM, jimurrayalterego said:

Just to remind the BU, especially on tweeners, "I've got the line" or I'm on the line". I also tell my BU if he hears that I still have 3B tag up but if circumstances permit back me up.

Isn't "I'm on the line" an indicator that the plate umpire will not rotate to 3rd in a potential rotation situation (R1, R1/R3, R1/R2 on a tag-up)?

If that is the case, "I have the line" would be less ambiguous, because the OP situation does not involve any potential for a plate umpire rotation. 

[SH0102]

I’m gonna add another thought I haven’t seen mentioned .  In this specific play, we have a deep fly ball (almost zero chance of a play at home) with a diving attempt near the line in the corner.

I don’t care if BU is allowed to look away at first touch to help with tag, if I’m HPU I want his eyes on the whole action in the OF.

If I have a “ball in mitt, but now on ground” situation, I don’t want my BU saying “I can’t help I looked away to get the tag up “ (of the guy who can walk home safely on this kind of play)

Plain and simple, this is a hole in 2 man and no “great umpire” can get the f/f, c/nc, voluntary release, and the tag up perfectly , something has to give (as said above, distance and positioning can’t get both) and my “help” should be on the trouble ball, not on the tag

[jimurrayalterego]

8 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

Isn't "I'm on the line" an indicator that the plate umpire will not rotate to 3rd in a potential rotation situation (R1, R1/R3, R1/R2 on a tag-up)?

If that is the case, "I have the line" would be less ambiguous, because the OP situation does not involve any potential for a plate umpire rotation. 

As far as I know most 2-man mechanics use it any time the PU has RF fly ball responsibilty. Common sense will determine if a rotation is off in sits where it would be used.

[Richvee]

12 hours ago, SH0102 said:

I’m gonna add another thought I haven’t seen mentioned .  In this specific play, we have a deep fly ball (almost zero chance of a play at home) with a diving attempt near the line in the corner.

I don’t care if BU is allowed to look away at first touch to help with tag, if I’m HPU I want his eyes on the whole action in the OF.

If I have a “ball in mitt, but now on ground” situation, I don’t want my BU saying “I can’t help I looked away to get the tag up “ (of the guy who can walk home safely on this kind of play)

Plain and simple, this is a hole in 2 man and no “great umpire” can get the f/f, c/nc, voluntary release, and the tag up perfectly , something has to give (as said above, distance and positioning can’t get both) and my “help” should be on the trouble ball, not on the tag

Just because R3 could have walked home doesn’t mean leaving early is less important. I still think a Quick Look back at R3 after the touch is a good mechanic, then, maybe back to the catch no catch. Maybe  U1 can spot a ball on the ground, but he has no angle on F/F help. Give the PU the help with the touch at third so he can stay fixed on C/NC, F/F, Voluntary release, etc. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Lots of really good conversation and interaction here as always...thank you, Brothers.

For the Star Trek fans, this is the umpiring equivalent of Starfleet Academy's Kobiyashi Maru exercise...it's a situation with too many variables that can't always be correctly or fully adjudicated in the 2-man system. We have to prioritize this in our plate meetings if for no other reason than to evaluate what kind of partner you have on that day for that game. If your partner is not asking some of the basic questions that were asked above, make sure you cover them.

There's a lot happening on this play...and there's a lot more that could happen. What's your best plan?

~Dawg

[DevildogUmp]

23 hours ago, Richvee said:

The OP is R3 only. R1/R3 as U1 I would not move to deep C. I would need to move into the working area behind the mound. 

I agree, once you have multiple runners, U1 is locked into the working area and just has to the best he can to see everything. 

18 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

Isn't "I'm on the line" an indicator that the plate umpire will not rotate to 3rd in a potential rotation situation (R1, R1/R3, R1/R2 on a tag-up)?

If that is the case, "I have the line" would be less ambiguous, because the OP situation does not involve any potential for a plate umpire rotation. 

This is exactly why this type of situation needs to be covered in your pregame conversation so both umpires are on the same page. In my association, we don't verbally call the ball on a non-trouble ball. The verbal call of on the ball or line cancels any rotation/normal base coverages. Basically, PU is relinquishing all of his base responsibilities except the plate.

[Replacematt]

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

Just because R3 could have walked home doesn’t mean leaving early is less important.

But it does. Runners will be more conservative. There will be less need for a call. The whole foundation of the two-umpire system relies on having eyes where calls are the most likely.

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

 Maybe  U1 can spot a ball on the ground, but he has no angle on F/F help. Give the PU the help with the touch at third so he can stay fixed on C/NC, F/F, Voluntary release, etc. 

Not saying not to help at third, but everything you listed is more important and more likely to need help than the tag at third.

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Replacematt said:

But it does. Runners will be more conservative. There will be less need for a call. The whole foundation of the two-umpire system relies on having eyes where calls are the most likely.

 

And, PU and / or U1 can glance at R3 before the ball gets to the glove to see that R3 is on the base.  You won't have a gross miss.