UT-Vandy Shenanigans

[zoops]

Seemed to be the normal misbehavior this weekend.  Would seem we should be cracking down and ejecting people over this kind of stuff.  I know Vandy wasn't innocent over the course of the weekend either.  Thoughts on managing the nonsense?

 

 

[orangebird]

Honestly being a MiLB umpire seems about 10x less stressful than being an SEC umpire for game management lol, I can't imagine your average Baysox game has the same amount of hostility as a Vandy/UT, Ole Miss/Miss St, etc game 

[SeeingEyeDog]

As a baseball fan, I say let them flip bats, talk trash...do whatever they want. Anything short of physical altercations, racial epithets or things that unnecessarily delay the game should be permitted. If Michigan wants to go ding-dong on Ohio State and then someone comes out of the dugout and plants a flag near the plate during the celebration...fine. Make sure you take it with you back to the dugout. If the Buckeyes don't like it...don't give up the donger, I guess...the NCAA didn't seem to have a problem with a flag getting planted at Ohio Stadium...

As an umpire, well...the rules are the rules and should be enforced as written and directed. There are clearly things the NCAA has decided they do not want in their games and the umpires, as all umpires are, are duty bound to enforce the rules...or face the consequences for failing to do so.

~Dawg 

[Velho]

2 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

There are clearly things the NCAA has decided they do not want in their games

Agreed. At the same time, I'm starting to get old NHL vibes, i.e. that they like it.

For example, all those players coming out of the dugout. Seems you could influence things (maybe minimally but still) by EJ anyone who leaves the dugout. NBA players get suspended for even stepping onto the court from the bench during an altercation (or used to. I think it's relaxed ever so slightly of late).

[zoops]

As much as I'd like to say I'd eject a BR for yelling (presumed) F bombs at the opponent as he rounds the bases, I definitely want to say I'm ejecting kids for jumping out of the dugout during said HR trot and yelling (presumed) F bombs at the opponent.  Kind of sad that the accepted mechanic here is for the U1 to have to come in and police the dugout during the trot.  A few EJs and they'd stop and this kind of babysitting wouldn't be needed IMO.  

Obviously there had to be other things that led up to this, but nonetheless. 

[wolfe_man]

*

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, zoops said:

As much as I'd like to say I'd eject a BR for yelling (presumed) F bombs at the opponent as he rounds the bases, I definitely want to say I'm ejecting kids for jumping out of the dugout during said HR trot and yelling (presumed) F bombs at the opponent. 

We had this situation in our conference tournament last week. When we got together to discuss our plan for dealing with it, we never discussed ejection as an option nor even thought about it. It's not the penalty that the collective wants for this.

[wolfe_man]

...

[Replacematt]

6 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

To be clear, you do college ball, correct?

At HS level or below, this is an EJ (no swearing is in FED).

I just don't want to confuse anyone in case they don't understand.

Correct. This was an NCAA conference tournament. 

[Velho]

50 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

We had this situation in our conference tournament last week. When we got together to discuss our plan for dealing with it, we never discussed ejection as an option nor even thought about it. It's not the penalty that the collective wants for this.

Curious what course of action y'all considered vs took and did it work to calm things down?

[Replacematt]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Curious what course of action y'all considered vs took and did it work to calm things down?

We issued a bench warning for USC and jockeying--and made it clear to the whole roster that any word, any, directed to the other team put them at risk of ejection and missing the next game (if they got there.) We chose both to give us the option to toss the HC if we got to a second ejection.

It did mitigate the situation. I think making them aware of the consequences did more to do so than just warning them, especially for the seniors.

[zoops]

I work NCAA as well.  I guess I'm of the opinion that they should know that this behavior isn't acceptable.  I could see a warning to nip this early and EJs after that, but I guess if a batter starts yelling F bombs at the infielders on a home run trot, that doesn't deserve a warning.  Just seems that this type of behavior is happening quite a bit in D1 ball (not my level).  Then we see after the game more chirping at each other and benches clearing (still don't think any EJs were issued).  Makes it confusing as a part-time NCAA umpire.  

[Replacematt]

26 minutes ago, zoops said:

I work NCAA as well.  I guess I'm of the opinion that they should know that this behavior isn't acceptable.  I could see a warning to nip this early and EJs after that, but I guess if a batter starts yelling F bombs at the infielders on a home run trot, that doesn't deserve a warning.  Just seems that this type of behavior is happening quite a bit in D1 ball (not my level).  Then we see after the game more chirping at each other and benches clearing (still don't think any EJs were issued).  Makes it confusing as a part-time NCAA umpire.  

I think it's been made very clear that warnings are to be the first step before almost any ejection. However, if you are saying it is confusing, maybe it hasn't been made clear. The few exceptions fall under, for example, personal comments directed at an umpire, slurs directed at anyone, or physically violent acts.

I would also mention this...issuing warnings isn't saying that something is acceptable; if we equate unacceptable=ejection, then we've created a corridor of all-or-nothing thinking where we are either not going to take action until it's too late, or take action that is too severe too early. We have scalpels, we have hammers, we have earplugs, and we have bullhorns. Lots of tools at our disposal.

 

[JSam21]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

Agreed. At the same time, I'm starting to get old NHL vibes, i.e. that they like it.

For example, all those players coming out of the dugout. Seems you could influence things (maybe minimally but still) by EJ anyone who leaves the dugout. NBA players get suspended for even stepping onto the court from the bench during an altercation (or used to. I think it's relaxed ever so slightly of late).

The NCAA doesn't like it... some of the conferences do...

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, zoops said:

I work NCAA as well.  I guess I'm of the opinion that they should know that this behavior isn't acceptable.  I could see a warning to nip this early and EJs after that, but I guess if a batter starts yelling F bombs at the infielders on a home run trot, that doesn't deserve a warning.  Just seems that this type of behavior is happening quite a bit in D1 ball (not my level).  Then we see after the game more chirping at each other and benches clearing (still don't think any EJs were issued).  Makes it confusing as a part-time NCAA umpire.  

There are levels to this game... at D2 and D3, there is much less wiggle room for the players. When we start talking about conferences with TV contracts... well they have more power to say how things should go... Why do you think the SEC coaches and pundits don't like the newer umpires that have been coming in?

[grayhawk]

50 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

I think it's been made very clear that warnings are to be the first step before almost any ejection. However, if you are saying it is confusing, maybe it hasn't been made clear. The few exceptions fall under, for example, personal comments directed at an umpire, slurs directed at anyone, or physically violent acts.

Matt, I'm not sure what conferences you work, but are you on Dave and Paul's Wednesday zoom meetings? There was a video a few weeks back where the pitcher was walking off saying, "F you, F you, F you" to the batter and they made it clear that this is an immediate ejection. There is always some nuance to these situations, and it also depends somewhat on the importance of the game.

In the above video, it's clear that F1 said something that sparked the BR to start mouthing off. To me, this was unprovoked, because while the batter did stare his HR down for a second, he essentially got going and didn't say a word until F1 did. Without knowing what was said, it's hard to determine if warnings or an ejection is the best course of action. Of course, we want to get warnings in whenever possible.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Matt, I'm not sure what conferences you work, but are you on Dave and Paul's Wednesday zoom meetings? There was a video a few weeks back where the pitcher was walking off saying, "F you, F you, F you" to the batter and they made it clear that this is an immediate ejection. There is always some nuance to these situations, and it also depends somewhat on the importance of the game.

In the above video, it's clear that F1 said something that sparked the BR to start mouthing off. To me, this was unprovoked, because while the batter did stare his HR down for a second, he essentially got going and didn't say a word until F1 did. Without knowing what was said, it's hard to determine if warnings or an ejection is the best course of action. Of course, we want to get warnings in whenever possible.

Nope, I'm not...I'm not in that area of the country.

Food for thought...if that is the clip I'm thinking of, there was no ejection there. There was no ejection in the OP. And I have seen plenty of things (in person and recorded) of players saying things like this to others with no time off for their efforts.

Ejection in any of these cases could be supported by rule. But it doesn't have to be THE tool, and I disagree (and apparently, so do others by virtue of action) with the idea that this is an immediate ejection. Besides...isn't at least one of these examples from their conferences, or am I misremembering?

In the end, if the behavior stops, the chosen tool worked. If it didn't, then the next one should. And of course context matters. Tossing a batter or pitcher in March isn't going to get on the radar the way it will in May and beyond.

[grayhawk]

12 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Nope, I'm not...I'm not in that area of the country.

Food for thought...if that is the clip I'm thinking of, there was no ejection there. There was no ejection in the OP. And I have seen plenty of things (in person and recorded) of players saying things like this to others with no time off for their efforts.

Ejection in any of these cases could be supported by rule. But it doesn't have to be THE tool, and I disagree (and apparently, so do others by virtue of action) with the idea that this is an immediate ejection. Besides...isn't at least one of these examples from their conferences, or am I misremembering?

In the end, if the behavior stops, the chosen tool worked. If it didn't, then the next one should. And of course context matters. Tossing a batter or pitcher in March isn't going to get on the radar the way it will in May and beyond.

I would have to go back and watch the recording, but I thought F1 was ejected in the video I'm thinking of. I think the batter reacted and then the pitcher gave him the F bombs. Not sure which conference this was from.

[grayhawk]

48 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Nope, I'm not...I'm not in that area of the country.

Food for thought...if that is the clip I'm thinking of, there was no ejection there. There was no ejection in the OP. And I have seen plenty of things (in person and recorded) of players saying things like this to others with no time off for their efforts.

Ejection in any of these cases could be supported by rule. But it doesn't have to be THE tool, and I disagree (and apparently, so do others by virtue of action) with the idea that this is an immediate ejection. Besides...isn't at least one of these examples from their conferences, or am I misremembering?

In the end, if the behavior stops, the chosen tool worked. If it didn't, then the next one should. And of course context matters. Tossing a batter or pitcher in March isn't going to get on the radar the way it will in May and beyond.

It was Wash St. @ Oregon State on 3/12. Batter struck out for the 3rd out and the pitcher started talking crap, started walking toward the plate area a few steps and was saying, "F you, F you, F you!" and was immediately EJ by PU. They broke it down to 3 levels: (1) Talk to (2) Warn (3) Eject. The instruction was that the combination of aggression (walking towards the hitter) and the language directed at the hitter made it well past a talking to, and past a warning.

[orangebird]

Just now, grayhawk said:

It was Wash St. @ Oregon State on 3/12. Batter struck out for the 3rd out and the pitcher started talking crap, started walking toward the plate area a few steps and was saying, "F you, F you, F you!" and was immediately EJ by PU. They broke it down to 3 levels: (1) Talk to (2) Warn (3) Eject. The instruction was that the combination of aggression (walking towards the hitter) and the language directed at the hitter made it well past a talking to, and past a warning.

Are you a former/current Pac-12 umpire? Curious how that works when a conference kinda stops existing for a year. 

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, grayhawk said:

It was Wash St. @ Oregon State on 3/12. Batter struck out for the 3rd out and the pitcher started talking crap, started walking toward the plate area a few steps and was saying, "F you, F you, F you!" and was immediately EJ by PU. They broke it down to 3 levels: (1) Talk to (2) Warn (3) Eject. The instruction was that the combination of aggression (walking towards the hitter) and the language directed at the hitter made it well past a talking to, and past a warning.

So, this isn't the one I was remembering.

And I would agree with ejection here because of the totality of it--this is threatening a fight. Being a mouthy asshole in passing isn't quite on that level.

[grayhawk]

14 hours ago, orangebird said:

Are you a former/current Pac-12 umpire? Curious how that works when a conference kinda stops existing for a year. 

I'm not. As I understand it, OSU still works with the former Pac12 coordinator, but WSU joined the Mountain West and is being assigned by that coordinator.

[zoops]

16 hours ago, Replacematt said:

In the end, if the behavior stops, the chosen tool worked. If it didn't, then the next one should. And of course context matters. Tossing a batter or pitcher in March isn't going to get on the radar the way it will in May and beyond.

I guess I'd just argue that the behavior doesn't seem to be stopping.  I think nailing a couple of these with ejections would help to nip it.  If we just warn all the time...

I'll qualify that I don't watch a ton of D1 baseball and of course we just see the clusters on social media...

Just interesting situations to think about.  

[Replacematt]

4 hours ago, zoops said:

I guess I'd just argue that the behavior doesn't seem to be stopping.  I think nailing a couple of these with ejections would help to nip it.  If we just warn all the time...

I'll qualify that I don't watch a ton of D1 baseball and of course we just see the clusters on social media...

Just interesting situations to think about.  

In the micro, they are, such as my example. It happened, warning, no more. And those are the ones you don't see.

I don't know if hammering only a few would change things. It would need to be something relatively defined, consistent, and enforced across the board, like bat flips or props. 

[grayhawk]

6 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

I don't know if hammering only a few would change things. It would need to be something relatively defined, consistent, and enforced across the board, like bat flips or props. 

I feel like bat flips aren't dealt with consistently across the board. Props? Yes, because we have concrete, defined rules. If the prop comes out of the dugout, we eject. If it stays in the dugout, we don't. Bat flips are much less defined. How high does it go? Is it directed towards the opposing dugout? Opposing player? Is it accompanied by words or other actions? There are just so many more variables. If they gave us more defined parameters, then I think it would be more consistently enforced.