mac266 Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 Someone asked me this and I'm afraid I have to defer to the hive. I think we have a double play here, assuming the defense properly appeals, but I'm not sure. Situation: R2 only. Batter hits a fly ball to center field. R2 goes back towards 2nd to tag up, but never touches the base. F8 botches the catch and drops the ball. R2 advances to 3rd without tagging up and B-R safely gets to first. The defense's head coach talked with an umpire and convinced him there was a catch and the drop occurred on a transfer, so they reversed the call and called B-R out. They left the runner on third. It was the defense's assistant coach (who also umpires) who asked me this question; he said it was never a catch and the out should never have been awarded, but let's assume the call stands. We have a catch without the runner tagging up, so if the defense properly appeals, that's a double play, correct?
noumpere Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 Possibly. When a call is reversed, the umpires do their best to place runners where they would have been. So, if R2 was returning and only didn't return because the ball was dropped, place him back at second or third using your judgment. If R2 tried to return, but "left early" even before the ball was touched, call the out.
Velho Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 1 hour ago, noumpere said: When a call is reversed, the umpires do their best to place runners where they would have been. So, if R2 was returning and only didn't return because the ball was dropped, place him back at second or third using your judgment. If R2 tried to return, but "left early" even before the ball was touched, call the out. If a runner relies on an umpire "incorrect" call, we need to correct that right? Let's break this one down: Situation 1) Fly F8, R2 heads back towards 2B, ball hits ground, BU calls "no-catch", R2 never touches 2B after first contact, R2 advances to 3B. F8 picks ball immediately such that R2 would be judged as never having been able to tag-up and advance to 3B --> After the fact the call is changed to a catch and drop on the transfer. BU places R2 back on 2B. R2 touches 2B during dead ball. --> All good. Next pitch. Situation 2) Fly F8, R2 heads back towards 2B, ball hits ground, BU calls "no-catch", R2 never touches 2B after first contact, R2 advances to 3B. F8 butchers the play such that R2 could have retouched and advanced to 3B --> After the fact the call is changed to a catch and drop on the transfer. BU places R2 on 3B. (Situation A) R2 touches 2B and then touches 3B during dead ball; or (Situation B) R2 never touches 2B and goes to and touches 3B during dead ball --> In: (A) All good. Next pitch; (B) Upon proper appeal, R2 is out for not retouching 2B. Awards don't absolve the responsibility to touch. That how we're reading this?
beerguy55 Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 20 minutes ago, Velho said: (B) Upon proper appeal, R2 is out for not retouching 2B. Awards don't absolve the responsibility to touch. I'm not sure about this. Are you really "awarding" the runner third base? He's probably simply standing on it at the end of the play. That aside, there is a provision that if OBS caused the runner to miss said base they do not have to correct that infraction when advancing to, by award or not, the next base. I would treat this the same...the umpire's mistake is what caused the runner to not retouch...to "award" the runner third base, the umpire has determined that the runner not only intended to retouch, but would have done so AND successfully advanced, as to their judgment to what would have happened if the mistake wasn't made. There is no need to retouch. I think your scenario would only apply if it was determined that the runner never had any intent of returning to second base. In this case you're not awarding the runner third base...they are simply there as a result of the play (hell, maybe they even scored). Now, once you change the play to a catch, how do you handle it if there are verbal appeals - In a ruleset that allows dead ball appeals the defense would be able to (almost) immediately verbally appeal the infraction at second base, before said runner would have any time to even evaluate if he should go back and retouch. How much time would you need to give the runner to show intent to correct the mistake before allowing the verbal appeal? 2
Replacematt Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 2 hours ago, beerguy55 said: Now, once you change the play to a catch, how do you handle it if there are verbal appeals - In a ruleset that allows dead ball appeals the defense would be able to (almost) immediately verbally appeal the infraction at second base, before said runner would have any time to even evaluate if he should go back and retouch. How much time would you need to give the runner to show intent to correct the mistake before allowing the verbal appeal? Zero, since they can't legally retouch at this point. 1
Velho Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 9 minutes ago, Replacematt said: Zero, since they can't legally retouch at this point. Why not? All codes allow retouch when the ball is dead (like ball throw out of play), no? Why wouldn't this be the same? And if it wouldn't, are you saying if the runner was placed at 3B they're S.O.L. and will always be out on appeal? (Or am I missing something entirely?)
Replacematt Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 1 minute ago, Velho said: Why not? All codes allow retouch when the ball is dead (like ball throw out of play), no? Why wouldn't this be the same? And if it wouldn't, are you saying if the runner was placed at 3B they're S.O.L. and will always be out on appeal? (Or am I missing something entirely?) Well, there's one code that allows dead-ball appeals. And that code does not allow runners to retouch if they are on or past a subsequent base at any point while the ball is dead. 3
Velho Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 8 minutes ago, Replacematt said: Well, there's one code that allows dead-ball appeals. And that code does not allow runners to retouch if they are on or past a subsequent base at any point while the ball is dead. Ok, so scope limited to NFHS (I thought that's what you meant but good to confirm). Back to your point, are you saying R2 is out on appeal if placed on 3B as an outcome of reversing the no-catch to a catch (Situation 2 in my post?
Replacematt Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 8 minutes ago, Velho said: Ok, so scope limited to NFHS (I thought that's what you meant but good to confirm). Back to your point, are you saying R2 is out on appeal if placed on 3B as an outcome of reversing the no-catch to a catch (Situation 2 in my post? I think it's going to be situation-dependent. The whole thing is that we have the god rule at our disposal for this--if R2 might have done things differently, we can pretend they did. If not, we can keep things the way they are. 1
Richvee Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 This shouldn’t be an issue in FED. FED does not want a catch/no catch changed on fair fly ball with runners on. ‘25-‘26 FED umpire manual ”Get the Call Right” page 40. 1 1
RBIbaseball Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 37 minutes ago, Richvee said: This shouldn’t be an issue in FED. FED does not want a catch/no catch changed on fair fly ball with runners on. ‘25-‘26 FED umpire manual ”Get the Call Right” page 40. Where do I get access to the fed umpire manual
The Man in Blue Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 Buy it. NFHS thanks you for your diligence. These books are like printing money. Or printing books. And charging money so you can find out the secrets of the things we expect you to do.
Richvee Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 12 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said: Where do I get access to the fed umpire manual Without purchasing it from a place like referee.com, I don’t know. Our association gave out copies this year. I got to say, it’s totally revamped, and a LOT better than it used to be. 1
The Man in Blue Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 There is no world where you can comfortably call the runner out for your error. None. Tangent conversation: I hate when coaches try to use this claim. My standard for "on the transfer" means the ball has to come out of the throwing hand. If it comes out of the glove, they did not have control to make the transfer.
Richvee Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 7 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: My standard for "on the transfer" means the ball has to come out of the throwing hand I don’t have the energy to debate this tonight. But that’s just not supported by any definition of a catch.
Replacematt Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 18 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: There is no world where you can comfortably call the runner out for your error. None. Tangent conversation: I hate when coaches try to use this claim. My standard for "on the transfer" means the ball has to come out of the throwing hand. If it comes out of the glove, they did not have control to make the transfer. Then you're subject to protest using that logic. It's voluntary release, not voluntary transfer. As long as the fielder intentionally released their hold on the ball in the glove, it's a catch. Take a look at the play from MLB last year with the liner to F6 that came out very quickly after getting in the glove. 3
Velho Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 My obligatory post of Lil'O playing catch https://www.tiktok.com/@matthewstucko/video/7456440880057077023
mac266 Posted March 18 Author Report Posted March 18 19 hours ago, Richvee said: This shouldn’t be an issue in FED. FED does not want a catch/no catch changed on fair fly ball with runners on. ‘25-‘26 FED umpire manual ”Get the Call Right” page 40. FED umpire manual??? What on earth is this??? I've never heard of it.
jimurrayalterego Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 18 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: There is no world where you can comfortably call the runner out for your error. None. Tangent conversation: I hate when coaches try to use this claim. My standard for "on the transfer" means the ball has to come out of the throwing hand. If it comes out of the glove, they did not have control to make the transfer. OBR implemented your standard at season start some years past. They abandoned it midseason. Major League Baseball abandons the strict interpretation of the transfer rule - NBC Sports 1
jimurrayalterego Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 30 minutes ago, mac266 said: FED umpire manual??? What on earth is this??? I've never heard of it. $20.95 for digital on NFHS All Access. All Access irritatingly signs you out of their app frequently and I don't use it anymore. $21.95 for print version on NFHS. Needless to say I'm not buying. Que the rants up.
The Man in Blue Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 2 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said: $20.95 for digital on NFHS All Access. All Access irritatingly signs you out of their app frequently and I don't use it anymore. $21.95 for print version on NFHS. Needless to say I'm not buying. Que the rants up. Keep in mind that $20.95 digital copy is a rental, not a purchase. (Unless they have changed something.)
The Man in Blue Posted March 18 Report Posted March 18 2 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said: OBR implemented your standard at season start some years past. They abandoned it midseason. Major League Baseball abandons the strict interpretation of the transfer rule - NBC Sports Huh, didn't know that! I'm not saying I am 100% strict on that, just that that is my standard for consideration.
Richvee Posted March 19 Report Posted March 19 7 hours ago, mac266 said: FED umpire manual??? What on earth is this??? I've never heard of it. It’s been totally re done and doesn’t even resemble it’s predecessors. It still has its flaws, but worth looking through if you do high school ball.
jimurrayalterego Posted March 19 Report Posted March 19 10 minutes ago, Richvee said: It’s been totally re done and doesn’t even resemble it’s predecessors. It still has its flaws, but worth looking through if you do high school ball. Worth $20?
Richvee Posted March 19 Report Posted March 19 Just now, jimurrayalterego said: Worth $20? Hmmm. That’s debatable. I got one from my association this year. I probably wouldn’t shell out $20 for it. Then again, a tax write off is a tax write off 😁
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