Fixing the balk rule

[HumblePie]

21 years later ..............

FED finally decided that fixing the balk rule is worthy of an experimental year, and in Georgia and Arizona, this year, we will call balks according to OBR rules ... then we have to make a report on EVERY balk that was called and explain the circumstances.

Here is my question, because it is causing consternation locally.

When runners are on base, and a pitcher balks, but then throws a wild pitch, if the batter does not put the ball in play, and it's not a dropped 3rd scenario, my impression is that we kill the play and enforce the balk because the batter cannot POSSIBLY reach 1B.

I think there is MASSIVE confusion between a wild throw to a base (including home plate) which is not a pitch, and a wild pitch.

In other words ... if a pitcher balks, then disengages and throws home (difficult to do) when R3 is stealing, the play should be allowed to continue.  But if the pitcher balks and pitches, if the batter doesn't put the ball in play, and it is NOT a dropped 3rd scenario, I say KILL IT and enforce the balk.

PLEASE weigh in.

[BigBlue4u]

52 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

In other words ... if a pitcher balks, then disengages and throws home (difficult to do) when R3 is stealing, the play should be allowed to continue.  But if the pitcher balks and pitches, if the batter doesn't put the ball in play, and it is NOT a dropped 3rd scenario, I say KILL IT and enforce the balk.

 

58 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

n other words ... if a pitcher balks, then disengages and throws home (difficult to do) when R3 is stealing, the play should be allowed to continue.  But if the pitcher balks and pitches, if the batter doesn't put the ball in play, and it is NOT a dropped 3rd scenario, I say KILL IT and enforce the balk.

I don't agree.  Once a pitcher balks, the ball is dead immediately.  Anything else that happens is disregarded.  So, in your play, everything stops after your first four words,

"If a pitcher balks..."

[HumblePie]

13 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

I don't agree.  Once a pitcher balks, the ball is dead immediately.  Anything else that happens is disregarded.  So, in your play, everything stops after your first four words,

"If a pitcher balks..."

Did you completely ignore the fact that I said Georgia and Arizona were experimental states this year for calling the box according to OBR?

 

Ill save you time & effort ... YES, you did.

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, HumblePie said:

21 years later ..............

FED finally decided that fixing the balk rule is worthy of an experimental year, and in Georgia and Arizona, this year, we will call balks according to OBR rules ... then we have to make a report on EVERY balk that was called and explain the circumstances.

Here is my question, because it is causing consternation locally.

When runners are on base, and a pitcher balks, but then throws a wild pitch, if the batter does not put the ball in play, and it's not a dropped 3rd scenario, my impression is that we kill the play and enforce the balk because the batter cannot POSSIBLY reach 1B.

I think there is MASSIVE confusion between a wild throw to a base (including home plate) which is not a pitch, and a wild pitch.

In other words ... if a pitcher balks, then disengages and throws home (difficult to do) when R3 is stealing, the play should be allowed to continue.  But if the pitcher balks and pitches, if the batter doesn't put the ball in play, and it is NOT a dropped 3rd scenario, I say KILL IT and enforce the balk.

PLEASE weigh in.

There is massive confusion which can be alleviated by reading the following MLBUM excerpt. Except some of your cohorts either will not read it or try to comprehend it which is why FED wants to try "coach choice". You will find that a balk with a wild pitch or pickoff stays live until all runners stop advancing and the ball is returned to the infield. A balk by a pitcher who does not pitch and steps off would be dead immediately. 

"

6.8 BALK MECHANIC
In calling a balk, the umpire shall point laterally at the pitcher and call loudly, “That’s a balk.” However, the ball is not dead automatically when this call is made. The ball becomes dead when the umpire calls “Time” following the call of balk, and the call of “Time” is to be made only when play stops. Note that the umpire’s call of “Time” following the initial call of the balk is to be as loud and emphatic as the original call of balk.
The question arises as to when the umpire is to call “Time” to kill the ball after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered “stopped” and at what moment the umpire should call “Time” following the call of balk:
1. If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call “That’s a balk, time” and enforce the balk
2. If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call “Time” and enforce the balk.
Example (I): If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call “Time” the moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
Example (2): If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground out on a previous runner at the base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call “Time” the moment the out is made. Then enforce the balk.
If however, the batter reaches first and all runners advance at least one base on play following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
3. If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call “Time” the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in case 5 below.)
4. If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call “Time” the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
5.If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call “Time” and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
6. If  the balk is followed by a pitch which strikes the batter; call “Time” the moment the pitch strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batsman forces all other runners to advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
7. If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Riding of Official Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield).
8. If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call “Time” until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield). Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still “acknowledged.” That is, the pitch is nullified and the batter will resume his at bat with the count on him when the balk occurred unless
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, since all runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk
6,9 PENALTY FOR BALK
Under Official Rule 8.05, the penalty for a balk shall be: The ball is dead (when play stops), and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.
Note that in cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk"

[Velho]

Thanks @jimurrayalterego . As I read that I believe 6.8.8 covers the below but it's not explicit stated:

Situation: 1-1 count to B5, R2, 1 out

1. "That's a balk"

2. Wild pitch

3. R1 advances through 3B and is out at HP

4. Balk is acknowledged, R2 out stands, B5 is at bat with 1-1 count, no runners on

That correct?

If so, what if all the above happens with an additional R1 and R1 didn't advance to 2B? Is R2 out, R1 awarded 2B, and B5 has a 1-1 count?

[SH0102]

Easy way to remember this, balks are never a choice.  It’s either ignored (acknowledged but ignored) or it’s enforced.

Just ask, was the criteria to ignore met? If no, enforce and pitch didn’t happen.

[Replacematt]

53 minutes ago, Velho said:

Thanks @jimurrayalterego . As I read that I believe 6.8.8 covers the below but it's not explicit stated:

Situation: 1-1 count to B5, R2, 1 out

1. "That's a balk"

2. Wild pitch

3. R1 advances through 3B and is out at HP

4. Balk is acknowledged, R2 out stands, B5 is at bat with 1-1 count, no runners on

That correct?

If so, what if all the above happens with an additional R1 and R1 didn't advance to 2B? Is R2 out, R1 awarded 2B, and B5 has a 1-1 count?

Any time a runner is put out after passing the base which they would have been entitled on a balk award, the out stands. If there are other runners makes no difference, and what those other runners do/don't do makes no difference.

Think about your second example--if the out doesn't stand, then there is no possible downside for the lead runner to try to score on any balk.

[grayhawk]

Your question is EXACTLY why "fixing" the balk in HS baseball is a bad idea. There are just way too many scenarios that will lead to MASSIVE confusion on the part of all involved. The bottom line is that there will be so many more times umpires misapply the rule than there ever will be HRs taken away by immediate dead ball balks.

Last Friday was the first time in AGES I can remember that a ball was put into play following a balk call. This was in an NCAA game and with R1 & R3, F1 failed to stop and the batter hit a fly ball to RF. As soon as the ball was caught, we called time, awarded bases and brought the batter back with the same count. No need to allow the rest of the play at that point since the BR didn't advance one base.

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, HumblePie said:

if a pitcher balks, then disengages and throws home (difficult to do) when R3 is stealing, the play should be allowed to continue

I disagree. He balked while engaged?  Like a flinch, or stop start after coming set? There’s the balk… call time. There’s no play if after he balks he steps off. Play only continues on balks along the lines of no stop and F1 delivers the pitch, or balks for not stepping towards the base F1  throws to a base. 
(as @grayhawk alluded to….herein lies the problem with live balls in high school. 

[grayhawk]

1 minute ago, Richvee said:

I disagree. He balked while engaged?  Like a flinch, or stop start after coming set? There’s the balk… call time. There’s no play if after he balks he steps off. Play only continues on balks along the lines of no stop and F1 delivers the pitch, or balks for not stepping towards the base F1  throws to a base. 
(as @grayhawk alluded to….herein lies the problem with live balls in high school. 

Oh, I didn't allude to it 

[Richvee]

4 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Oh, I didn't allude to it 

Good point. Allude would be indirectly. You were rather direct. 😁👍

[noumpere]

17 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Easy way to remember this, balks are never a choice.  It’s either ignored (acknowledged but ignored) or it’s enforced.

 

Except that it can be ignored for the runners (they all advanced on the play) and enforced for the batter ("no pitch").

[jimurrayalterego]

30 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Except that it can be ignored for the runners (they all advanced on the play) and enforced for the batter ("no pitch").

MLBUM calls that “acknowledged” for the batter.