Velho Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 Well this is embarrassing... Is the "sprinters start" where the baserunner has a foot behind the base (and in foul territory when on 1B) legal in baseball? In practice you rarely see it in baseball vs often in softball. LL rules does say you can't get a flying start in back of the base if not touching the base so I think I've answered my own question but am wondering if I missed a rule cite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grayhawk Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 It's legal, but seems foolish. Why start a full step farther from the base you are trying to achieve? There's a reason you never see this happen at the highest levels of baseball. Does using the base for leverage on the front foot somehow make you start faster than using the base for leverage on the back foot? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLWizzRanger Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 FWIW, I always took it that they could start their movement toward the next base a few beats before the ball is touched and thus, will get up to full speed earlier. One or two steps more at full speed could possibly have them arrive safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 7 hours ago, grayhawk said: It's legal, but seems foolish. Why start a full step farther from the base you are trying to achieve? There's a reason you never see this happen at the highest levels of baseball. Does using the base for leverage on the front foot somehow make you start faster than using the base for leverage on the back foot? Well, at the highest levels of baseball you're allowed to lead off. That's the reason you don't see it. On tag ups, it's more about risk reward, and practicality. It's just too difficult to see the fly ball and the catch to accurately time one step in the future. Yes, it would be foolish to do it on tag ups. In rule sets where you are required to contact the base during the pitch, the maneuver is used in a timing way, to start moving before the pitch and time it so you come off the base as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. It's very easy for the runner to see and time this. This is an advantage to simply starting cold from the base, because you need a few steps to accelerate - having one step already behind means you are leaving the base with momentum, and you are already moving towards peak speed. Even if you don't have the time perfect and leave fractionally late you are going to have at least one more step running at full speed. It can easily mean 1/4 second over 60 feet - that's the difference between an easy out call and an easy safe call. The biggest risk, besides accidentally leaving early, is a home plate umpire sees movement out of the corner of their eye, sees that movement before the pitch is released, and concludes the runner left early. 8 hours ago, Velho said: Is the "sprinters start" where the baserunner has a foot behind the base (and in foul territory when on 1B) legal in baseball? Yes, as long as the runner is touching the base at TOP. Are you really seeing this on tag up plays? Or just on pitches to time leaving the bag? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted July 18 Author Report Share Posted July 18 22 minutes ago, beerguy55 said: Yes, as long as the runner is touching the base at TOP. Are you really seeing this on tag up plays? Or just on pitches to time leaving the bag? It’s runner timing leaving the bag as the pitch reaches the batter (the LL baseball rule). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 1 minute ago, Velho said: It’s runner timing leaving the bag as the pitch reaches the batter (the LL baseball rule). To clarify what I was saying earlier - in softball and LL the runner must touching the base at TOP...doesn't matter if they're four steps towards second, or three steps into foul territory. (it's often inaccurately called a "lead off" rule). And it doesn't matter where the other foot is. Where this gets contentious is where there is a double bag, and the runner starts with their foot on the orange bag, and nothing touching the white bag. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted July 18 Author Report Share Posted July 18 Yep. MSU. Crap. Live and learn. Bonus for the debate on is it faster or not: here is a study identifying that the sprinter start is faster https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5955303/ @beerguy55 - great point about it getting interpreted as leaving early. Often umpire go on the motion and forget that last cleat hangs on the bag longer than one would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 27 minutes ago, Velho said: Yep. MSU. Crap. Live and learn. Bonus for the debate on is it faster or not: here is a study identifying that the sprinter start is faster https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5955303/ @beerguy55 - great point about it getting interpreted as leaving early. Often umpire go on the motion and forget that last cleat hangs on the bag longer than one would think. Interesting that on its own using the base as a starter block seems faster, with front foot on the base, even though you're starting a step "behind" a person with back foot on the base. The article, as far as I have seen, doesn't even address the matter of timing the start so that the person with the front foot off the base is already moving when they push off the base (which is far different than a static start in starter blocks, in a 100m race for example). The one tangible example is a 200m race...world class sprinters always have better times in the second 100m because they are at full speed the entire distance, whereas the first 30-40m they are accelerating. If you were to have a 100m race, where runner A started from a static start at line 0...and equally talented runner B started 10m behind line 0, and timed things so he reached line 0 at the exact moment the gun goes off, and both runner A and runner B run 100m from that point, runner B wins...probably by almost 10m. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
834k3r Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 FWIW, I think the best "real life" analysis is collegiate softball given the requirement for the runner to stay on the base until after the pitch is delivered. They play at such a high level, the margins are so tight, they've probably done analysis on the "best" way to run. It appears both Alabama and Tennessee, at least, believe the "sprinter's start" is the fastest way to go from one base to another, despite starting a step behind a "normal" start. Neither screen capture is the best admittedly, but they both seem to show both teams using the "sprinter's start." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 5 hours ago, beerguy55 said: To clarify what I was saying earlier - in softball and LL the runner must touching the base at TOP...doesn't matter if they're four steps towards second, or three steps into foul territory. (it's often inaccurately called a "lead off" rule). And it doesn't matter where the other foot is. Where this gets contentious is where there is a double bag, and the runner starts with their foot on the orange bag, and nothing touching the white bag. I may be wrong, but I don’t think any softball code allows the runner to use the double bag that way. The runner must be on the white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted July 18 Report Share Posted July 18 12 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: I may be wrong, but I don’t think any softball code allows the runner to use the double bag that way. The runner must be on the white. Yes, and that's where it gets contentious. The rule is pretty clear, and it turns into a "I'm not leading off" argument, and the runner isn't at any advantage to do it. At the same time I wouldn't encourage umpires to pick up that end of the stick, or look for that infraction. It's an argument when they call it...and then on occasion it becomes an argument when they don't call it. Outside RLI it's about the stupidest and most argued rule there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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