More than 3 Feet to Avoid a Tag

[johnnyg08]

This one is pretty tight. I'd like to think I'd let this go and try to diffuse an argument from the defense vs the offense. What do you think? 
 

 

[The Man in Blue]

Posted this breakdown in the other thread, but it seems to fit better here . . . Sorry, didn't see this thread till after the other one.

This is a GREAT video to continue the discussion of when does a tag attempt occur.  The runner's lane markings give us a fantastic frame of reference.  Using those, there is no question the runner deviates more than three feet in his left-right range (farthest position inside the foul line to farthest position outside the foul line) while running to first base.

The question is WHEN does that tag attempt occur that we begin the runner's basepath?  This video gives us an amazing opportunity to illustrate our individual arguments on this long debated topic.

Some will argue the tag starts immediately after this frame (the ball enters the pitcher's glove as he is moving towards the runner).  I disagree with that.

 

I would argue it is roughly here

where we can tell the pitcher is going to reach out and approximately where that anticipated tag (collision point) is going to occur.

Now comes the next question.  I think this is one that eats us up sometimes and I don't believe we have ever discussed it.  We have long talked about when does the tag attempt begin . . . but when does it end?  Does the runner go more than three feet to avoid the tag OR is he carried more than three feet after the tag attempt?

Here it is, you missed him . . .

 

. . . but his momentum continues AFTER the tag attempt.  I believe this is his furthest position to the right.

 

 

So, man . . . It comes down to when the actual basepath is set and ends; this is close depending on when you mark those points.  If you go with as soon as the pitcher fields the ball moving toward the runner, then it is more than three feet (not a lot more).  If you go with a later point, it becomes fractions of space measurable by the naked eye.

[johnnyg08]

I agree with your assessment. 

I think this is a difficult call in real time...but it's difficult here because it's REALLY tight...and quite frankly, I think it's a miss.

This is a great video for analysis because of the camera angles and the runner's lane (only to calibrate three feet) 

I don't necessarily agree with the CCS assessment either...but I think it comes down to when the tag attempt begins & ends....which needs to be the real point of discussion on how to umpire plays like this. 

 

 

[Velho]

41 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

the runner deviates more than three feet in his left-right range (farthest position inside the foul line to farthest position outside the foul line) while running to first base.

Is that the three feet allotment?  Standing my feet are 2 feet apart. I am tall (6'3") but that's standing still and not rumbling bumbling and tumbling. 

Hasn't Lyndsey referred to the center of mass in the 3 feet assessments in the past?

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, Velho said:

tumbling.

"stumbling" not tumbling (I'm definitely wider than 3 feet if I tumble. I learned nothing from my gymnast daughter).

[The Man in Blue]

No, I am not saying that "range" is the allotment, I was trying to point out that he definitely goes more than three feet in that range, so it helps provide us with more context when we reach the point that we decide there is a tag attempt.

Center of mass vs. foot prints is another interesting piece of this.  When we talk about the runner's lane or the batter's box, we are directed to measure using the foot placement.  The basepath rule is . . . vague to say the least.  I think where the foot is is the easiest, but as we have seen in these plays, bodies start flying and slides start getting wild, so center of mass becomes a better gauge.

[johnnyg08]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

No, I am not saying that "range" is the allotment, I was trying to point out that he definitely goes more than three feet in that range, so it helps provide us with more context when we reach the point that we decide there is a tag attempt.

Center of mass vs. foot prints is another interesting piece of this.  When we talk about the runner's lane or the batter's box, we are directed to measure using the foot placement.  The basepath rule is . . . vague to say the least.  I think where the foot is is the easiest, but as we have seen in these plays, bodies start flying and slides start getting wild, so center of mass becomes a better gauge.

Wendelstedt calls for the "center of his body to measure from the moment of the tag attempt, and the same to determine his position after he moves" 

[Tborze]

What was the fiasco afterwards?  
 

Was it just that Skip went after the rook or was PU thrown under the bus?  

[johnnyg08]

31 minutes ago, Tborze said:

What was the fiasco afterwards?  
 

Was it just that Skip went after the rook or was PU thrown under the bus?  

I think Skip was fishing a bit since Milwaukee was in the 3B dugout was probably s-talking O'Nora and was left w/ no choice but to dump him. 

[Velho]

19 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Wendelstedt calls for the "center of his body to measure from the moment of the tag attempt, and the same to determine his position after he moves" 

👍 This one feels like a rule looking for a call. Or is it a call looking for a rule? Whatever. I have to agree with the stands this time: let them play.

[johnnyg08]

6 minutes ago, Velho said:

👍 This one feels like a rule looking for a call. Or is it a call looking for a rule? Whatever. I have to agree with the stands this time: let them play.

I agree. It's simply too tight to call. So much judgement on this...when does the tag attempt start? Where was the runner at the point of the tag? Where did the runner end up after the tag attempt? After the tag attempt, my understanding is that the 36" resets. I think either way you're gonna get an argument...the lesser of the two evils would be explaining to the defense why it wasn't called. 

[flyingron]

You can decide where it starts but in even the kindest positioning I have he is to the left of the foul line (and frankly I think he was on the grass).  He runs on the runner lane chalk line which puts him 3' to the right of the foul line and even further from the edge of the grass.

[Velho]

18 minutes ago, flyingron said:

You can decide where it starts but in even the kindest positioning I have he is to the left of the foul line (and frankly I think he was on the grass).  He runs on the runner lane chalk line which puts him 3' to the right of the foul line and even further from the edge of the grass.

Very true but what are you using as starting point and ending point? Outermost position of his body to the left and then to the right?

[flyingron]

Lindsey used the same foot in her estimation.

[beerguy55]

It's no different than a banger - is he 2'10" away or 3'2"?

Arguing it is pointless and it should really not happen.  Ump saw likely what I saw...starting on dirt on fair side of running lane, and ended on left chalk of running lane.   it's his judgment and outside official replay review (this one is not reviewable) his judgment is right...always.

Argue egregious misses not 50/50 calls.

If your argument is it needs to be more "obvious"...fine, argue it.   U1 felt it was obvious, and he made his call "big" to illustrate it.

[Velho]

4 hours ago, flyingron said:

Lindsey used the same foot in her estimation.

I didn't ask what she said. I asked what you were using. 😉

I recall she used the left foot and then the right foot for the point to point comparison (could be wrong, not going to go back through the video).

Regardless, can I ask why you don't like the WUM guidance?

On 7/2/2024 at 9:59 AM, johnnyg08 said:

Wendelstedt calls for the "center of his body to measure from the moment of the tag attempt, and the same to determine his position after he moves" 

If you're saying center mass moved 37" or more side to side, cool. I won't fight that but I find the foot positioning argument interesting and a very tight interpretation of the base path.

Heck, Rowdy Tellez or Daniel Voglebach's base paths are 2-2 1/2' feet wide to begin with. They can only move 6" one way or the other to avoid a tag?

[The Man in Blue]

The other point to be made is it doesn't matter if he ran to the pitcher's plate and then to the other side of the lane line . . . it matters where he was when the tag attempt started and when the tag attempt ended.  

The visual of the feet and the lines is what makes this a great one to study.  However, I disagreed with when she said the tag attempt started.  IMO, he was over there, but so what.