Umpire mechanics question fair/foul past first base.

[josephthl]

Sorry I know this seems like a basic mechanics question but I literally can't find the answer anywhere.

With no runners on and a fly ball hit near the line past first bag, what is the base umpire mechanics if he is going out to make the fair/foul catch/no catch? I understand he is supposed to make the fair/foul call first followed by catch/no catch. But what is the mechanic for a foul ball caught in this case? Is it with both hands outstretched like every other fair/foul call followed by the closed fist "out" call? Or is it a point to foul territory followed by the closed fist? Does the mechanic change if the plate umpire is making the call with runners on? It just seems in the latter case holding your hands in front above head would make it seem like the ball is dead when in fact runners can tag up. Any clarity here would be much appreciated!

[Biscuit]

As soon as the ball is touched (and fair foul is in question), point either to fair territory with your left hand if it was touched over fair territory, or towards fould territory with your right hand if it was touched over foul territory. Do not verbalize anything. Note, it is the position of the ball in relation to fair territory, not the fielder, that matters, unless the fielder is in out of play territory (unlikely). If the ball is over foul territory and is subsequently caught, there is usually no need for a further signal. In the case of a diving play or other catch that is not obvious, raise the fist in an out call and verbalize "that's a catch!" Again, on a routine catch, no need to signal or verbalize anything beyond pointing to rule on the status of the ball when touched.

If the ball is dropped after having been first touched while over foul territory, even if it is deflected fair before touching the ground, (your should still be pointing to foul territory), raise you arms in the traditional foul mechanic and verbalize "Foul!" If dropped after having been touched first over fair territory, make a safe mechanic while verbalizing "no catch!"

Remember, the ball is not foul until it touches the ground. That's why we point (no verbal) when it's over foul territory. If this touches the ground (or wall) before being legally caught, we have a foul ball. If caught, we have an out. And the ball is NOT foul. 

[noumpere]

5 hours ago, Biscuit said:

A If dropped after having been touched first over fair territory, make a safe mechanic while verbalizing "no catch!"

 

Only do this if it isn't obvious -- as you indicated in the previous paragraph for a dropped foul.

[beerguy55]

7 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Remember, the ball is not foul until it touches the ground. That's why we point (no verbal) when it's over foul territory. If this touches the ground (or wall) before being legally caught, we have a foul ball. If caught, we have an out. And the ball is NOT foul. 

The ball is foul as soon as it is touched in foul territory.  This is why you are pointing to indicate it is foul.  The ball is not "dead" until it hits the ground, which is why you verbalize Foul at that point.  The fact that you don't verbalize anything does not change the status - it's a foul ball.  It's not a fair ball.  Once touched by a fielder it can only be one or the other.

An uncaught foul ball is dead. 5.06(c)(5)

By extension, a caught foul ball is live.

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

The ball is foul as soon as it is touched in foul territory.  This is why you are pointing to indicate it is foul.  The ball is not "dead" until it hits the ground, which is why you verbalize Foul at that point.  The fact that you don't verbalize anything does not change the status - it's a foul ball.  It's not a fair ball.  Once touched by a fielder it can only be one or the other.

An uncaught foul ball is dead. 5.06(c)(5)

By extension, a caught foul ball is live.

Only a pro scorekeeper cares if a caught ball is foul or fair. Or does gamechanger chart that also. 

[beerguy55]

57 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Only a pro scorekeeper cares if a caught ball is foul or fair. Or does gamechanger chart that also. 

If I remember correctly, it does/can.  Even from a scorekeeping perspective it doesn't really matter, unless you're really trying to pinpoint batter tendencies to where EXACTLY they hit the ball.  Otherwise, it's simply a ball put into play.

It's just about understanding the definitions and making sure we're passing along the correct information to those who are asking.  Every batted ball, in the end, is either foul or fair.  Some fair balls are dead, some foul balls are live.

[Biscuit]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The ball is foul as soon as it is touched in foul territory.  This is why you are pointing to indicate it is foul.  The ball is not "dead" until it hits the ground, which is why you verbalize Foul at that point.  The fact that you don't verbalize anything does not change the status - it's a foul ball.  It's not a fair ball.  Once touched by a fielder it can only be one or the other.

An uncaught foul ball is dead. 5.06(c)(5)

By extension, a caught foul ball is live.

Ah yes, good catch (no pum intended).