Velho Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 56 minutes ago, beerguy55 said: This goes back to the position I proposed on the other thread. The runner can correct his error during the dead ball, but can't also return to second base. I think these principles allow for the most consistent (and fair) approach - dead balls without awards, dead balls with awards, missed bases, left early. On 3/1/2024 at 8:03 AM, beerguy55 said: Scenario 2 - B/R hits deep, misses first, rounds second base, and then OF throws the ball, which goes out of play. The runner is awarded home. ... In both scenarios, after the ball goes out of play, the runner properly retouches second and then first to correct their base running error. MLBUM specifically mentions Scenario 1, and rules that the award changes to third base. Does the award also "reset" to third base in Scenario 2, or does it remain home base? For clarity - what's your opinion on BR in your OP Scenario 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 45 minutes ago, Velho said: For clarity - what's your opinion on BR in your OP Scenario 2? My opinion (for what it is or is not worth) is the award should reset, just like the left early scenario. In a dead ball he can correct the error...and then that's his base. If there's an award, it is then assessed from that base. If he missed multiple bases, it would go by earliest base. (so we don't get some silly missed first, missed second, then missed second again, touched first, touched second to find a loophole...you get first base). If he were to simply take his home award from where he was located between second and third, which is his prerogative, then he'd be at risk to be put out on appeal for missing first base. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 55 minutes ago, beerguy55 said: 1 hour ago, Velho said: For clarity - what's your opinion on BR in your OP Scenario 2? My opinion (for what it is or is not worth) is the award should reset, just like the left early scenario. I agree. After touching 1B in Scenario 2, BR would be awarded 3B. Appreciate the thread. I don't think this is a wildly unlikely play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stk004 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 On 3/1/2024 at 8:03 AM, beerguy55 said: This question came up in another thread, but may have got lost in the other elements of the conversation. OBR Scenario 1 - R1 runs on a fly ball and rounds second base...OF then makes the catch and throws the ball, which goes out of play. The runner is awarded home. Scenario 2 - B/R hits deep, misses first, rounds second base, and then OF throws the ball, which goes out of play. The runner is awarded home. MLBUM rules the runner may correct their error, as long as they don't touch third base before doing so. In both scenarios, after the ball goes out of play, the runner properly retouches second and then first to correct their base running error. MLBUM specifically mentions Scenario 1, and rules that the award changes to third base. Does the award also "reset" to third base in Scenario 2, or does it remain home base? Scenario 1: Award changes to third base Scenario 2: Award remains home base, BR scores. The changing of an award is specific to "If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch." This is a specific exception to the rule of awarding bases based on the position of a runner at the time of the throw. So in Scenario 2, the BR can return to touch first base (as long as he does so before reaching third base), then touch second, third, and home, scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlue4u Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 23 hours ago, noumpere said: The question is for OBR, where the letter "leaves too early" is covered and the former ("misses a base") is not discussed either way. From the MLBUM: "While the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 4 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said: From the MLBUM: "While the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left too soon after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base." MLBUM further clarifies that this is defined by where the runner is when the ball goes out of play. "next base" or "base beyond" in this section refers to the position of the runner at the time the ball went out of play." Also from MLBUM... Is this permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon? Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Finally someone (STK…) gets it correct. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 You guys are throwing opinions around for these topics. They are not opinions, they are stated( or not stated) clearly in the rules and in the MLBUM. NEVER has an award been “reset” on a play where the runner legally went back and touched a missed base!! NEVER NEVER NEVER But it won’t matter you guys have to see a “citing” and even after seeing a citing, you argue that the citing is incorrect !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 22 minutes ago, TOMUIC said: You guys are throwing opinions around for these topics. They are not opinions, they are stated( or not stated) clearly in the rules and in the MLBUM. NEVER has an award been “reset” on a play where the runner legally went back and touched a missed base!! NEVER NEVER NEVER But it won’t matter you guys have to see a “citing” and even after seeing a citing, you argue that the citing is incorrect !! Jesus F*#K you take things personally. There is no citing here. You and STK are posting an opinion...that doesn't preclude you from being correct, but make no mistake, it's an opinion, just like everyone else. There is no authoritative finding on that scenario. Play rock paper scissors for it for all I care. We have a citing for one type of baserunning error. Valid opinion one is the methodology/ruling/approach applies to other baserunning errors...and valid opinion two is the ruling in MLBUM is specific and exclusive to that one scenario. There's no point in getting upset about a debate. I challenge you to present a real world scenario, at any level, where the missed base example in the OP (or one like it) has actually ever happened. You might be right that's it's never been reset...because it's actually never happened. Guys who missed first and are on their way to third base don't turn around to fix it...likely even when presented the fortuitous opportunity in a dead ball. So, yes, it makes this an academic discussion, but you can't declare a never resolution for a scenario that never needed to be resolved. (and that COULD be why it's not in MLBUM) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Fine, think what you want, but eventually you will come across the correct answer and I don’t expect you to let us know that you were wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Base running awards are from the last legally acquired base or base that he is legally entitled to. When a runner misses a base, he is not entitled to any bases beyond. In the case of a missed base, because we do not make an automatic call, the runner is presumed to have acquired that base. If there is a proper appeal and we know he didn't touch the base, we call him out. If he returns, and we know he didn't, then that is his last legally acquired base. He may not advance during a dead ball. If you allow him to correct AND advance under ANY circumstance, then you have robbed the defense of the chance to make a proper appeal. The inclusion or providing of an example does NOT exclude or preclude other possibilities. If you want to ignore the language in several relevant rules to narrowly focus in on the verbiage of one rule, all the more power to you. See: 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment 5.06(b)(4)(G) Approved Ruling and Comment Approved Ruling 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment 5.06(c) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Sorry, missed bases DO NOT “reset” the award when the runner returns (legally) to touch the missed base. The award is solely based on his location at the time of the throw (or pitch). The award IS “reset” on a CAUGHT flyball with the runner attempting to return to the base left TOO SOON. As correctly stated earlier by a member, that is a special case and is an exception to the overthrow award procedure. ANY rules clinician “worth their salt” will know that what is stated above is absolutely correct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blue Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Would be a valid argument, except . . . once he returns during a dead ball, that is where he is. He may not re-advance during a dead ball, so the award comes from the last entitled (or legally touched or legally acquired) base as many rules state. It does not come from the furthest base he had reached, as he was not legally entitled to any of the bases after the one he missed. Let's go crazy stupid extreme . . . Batter-runner sees the overthrow is rolling for the out-of-play area and there is no fence. He recognizes this and immediately turns (1) before touching first base, or (2) after touching first base and heads for third base. F2 makes the miracle save and fires to third base, where the runner is sliding in "safely." The ball goes out of play. What are you awarding him and what are you letting him do in those scenarios? What was his last legally acquired base? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 If the runner is on or past second when the errant throw is released, his award his home plate, if the ball goes dead before he reaches third then he is not allowed to touch third if he wants to legally correct his mistake of missing first base. In either case, the award is home, whether he goes back to correct this mistake or not, this is not a caught flyball. Once again, talk to a real rules clinician and he will tell you that this is correct . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 14 hours ago, TOMUIC said: Fine, think what you want, but eventually you will come across the correct answer and I don’t expect you to let us know that you were wrong! Jesus Christ - there is empirical evidence in the other thread of me realizing an error and correcting it. On the other hand, there is zero evidence of you making such an admission ever, even when it has been very clearly shown you were wrong. You're the guy who said that an IFF is considered caught, even if it is not, and is treated like a catch....and then pretended it never happend. We're all here to learn...except you, because you apparently know it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tborze Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 18 hours ago, Stk004 said: Scenario 1: Award changes to third base Scenario 2: Award remains home base, BR scores. The changing of an award is specific to "If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch." This is a specific exception to the rule of awarding bases based on the position of a runner at the time of the throw. So in Scenario 2, the BR can return to touch first base (as long as he does so before reaching third base), then touch second, third, and home, scoring. “If a runner is forced”? Is this implying that the BR was “forced” at 1B? 17 hours ago, beerguy55 said: MLBUM further clarifies that this is defined by where the runner is when the ball goes out of play. "next base" or "base beyond" in this section refers to the position of the runner at the time the ball went out of play." Also from MLBUM... Is this permissible, or is the runner considered a "base beyond" the base he left too soon? Ruling: It is permissible for the runner to return to second base while the ball is dead. When the ball went out of play the runner originally on second base was past third (between third and home). The runner's "next base" is therefore home. While the ball is dead he may return to second base and retouch at any time prior to touching home plate. However, if the runner advances to and touches home while the ball is dead, he may not return." Does the highlighted paragraph prove that this applies only to “runners”? Just grasping at straws here!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMUIC Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Gentlemen, I have certainly made my share of mistakes over the years. However, regarding this situation with the BR returning to touch first base (after initially missing it) prior to taking his award, I am optimistic that members will determine that the award does not “reset”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 1 hour ago, Tborze said: “If a runner is forced”? Is this implying that the BR was “forced” at 1B? Grammatical "forced", not baseball "forced". The runner is required/mandated/obligated/strongly recommended to return to first, because he left early. 1 hour ago, Tborze said: Does the highlighted paragraph prove that this applies only to “runners”? Who else would it apply to? The provision is talking about baserunners, where they are located on the bases, and what dictates whether or not they may return to correct a baserunning error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velho Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 2 hours ago, TOMUIC said: regarding this situation with the BR returning to touch first base (after initially missing it) prior to taking his award, I am optimistic that members will determine that the award does not “reset”. Let's try this since we collectively seem to be going in circles across at least two threads... @TOMUIC can you provide the cite showing the rules about retouching don't apply to missed bases? Redundant with your prior posts, I know, but it's clear we don't seem to be hearing you as clearly as you think you've stated it. Further, I ask it that way because imo the counter argument is the rules don't address it directly (which we all wish it did) and, in that ambiguity, are drawing analogies or inferring from other places. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tborze Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 56 minutes ago, beerguy55 said: Grammatical "forced", not baseball "forced". The runner is required/mandated/obligated/strongly recommended to return to first, because he left early. Who else would it apply to? The provision is talking about baserunners, where they are located on the bases, and what dictates whether or not they may return to correct a baserunning error. I was basically thinking about your play 2 in the OP FED makes it easy but the OBR ruing is more fair IMO, but the situation in question doesn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 26 minutes ago, Tborze said: I was basically thinking about your play 2 in the OP FED makes it easy but the OBR ruing is more fair IMO, but the situation in question doesn’t. I'm still not following the context of your question, though. I would agree that the OBR ruling is not only more fair, but more realistic. But, in context, MLBUM ruling says a completely different thing than what the rule says. The rule is pretty black and white...if you're a base beyond the base you missed/left early you can't correct (if the ball is dead). MLBUM says "sorry, my bad...we meant the base after the base after the base you missed/left early, and maybe the one after that too" - FED at least follows the rule to the letter...hard to argue it. They even close the loophole of the defense throwing the ball out of play on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 19 hours ago, Velho said: Let's try this since we collectively seem to be going in circles across at least two threads... @TOMUIC can you provide the cite showing the rules about retouching don't apply to missed bases? Redundant with your prior posts, I know, but it's clear we don't seem to be hearing you as clearly as you think you've stated it. Further, I ask it that way because imo the counter argument is the rules don't address it directly (which we all wish it did) and, in that ambiguity, are drawing analogies or inferring from other places. Thanks. There is no cite. The position is since/because MLBUM does not address the scenario it must be different from the left early scenario that is addressed. That is, the award is home, because there isn't an MLBUM ruling saying it isn't. It's back to the original question a few have stated - is the MLBUM ruling an example, to be repurposed to all baserunning error scenarios...or is it exclusive to the one scenario. (or, is there no MLBUM ruling because the scenario has never come up in any live game to be addressed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tborze Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 1 hour ago, beerguy55 said: I'm still not following the context of your question, though. I would agree that the OBR ruling is not only more fair, but more realistic. But, in context, MLBUM ruling says a completely different thing than what the rule says. The rule is pretty black and white...if you're a base beyond the base you missed/left early you can't correct (if the ball is dead). MLBUM says "sorry, my bad...we meant the base after the base after the base you missed/left early, and maybe the one after that too" - FED at least follows the rule to the letter...hard to argue it. They even close the loophole of the defense throwing the ball out of play on purpose. If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base. Does this not answer your #2 question? How is BR being awarded home? I’m done after this, my brain is hurting lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerguy55 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 52 minutes ago, Tborze said: Does this not answer your #2 question? How is BR being awarded home? I’m done after this, my brain is hurting lol I don't know - that's what I'm asking - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't - it addresses scenario 1...the question of this thread is whether or not it addresses scenario 2...I wasn't (am not) clear on where you were going with your previous posts. As far as BR being awarded home; keep in mind that before correcting the running error the TOT award is home (the runner is between second and third in both scenarios) - the runner may choose to take their award and hope the defense doesn't notice the miss/left early...or the runner may choose to correct their baserunning error. In a left early situation MLBUM specifically says the award is changed to be assessed from the base that was corrected (which you address above) - so even though the TOT award may be home, after returning to the base left early the award is now third base. The answer for scenario 1 is clear. The question is if this is the same for a missed base - scenario 2. Or, if first base was "missed", the runner is still awarded home (the TOT award) after correcting the error? There are at least a couple of people on this thread who posit the award remains home....that the MLBUM ruling is ONLY for a left early situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tborze Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 15 hours ago, beerguy55 said: I don't know - that's what I'm asking - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't - it addresses scenario 1...the question of this thread is whether or not it addresses scenario 2...I wasn't (am not) clear on where you were going with your previous posts. As far as BR being awarded home; keep in mind that before correcting the running error the TOT award is home (the runner is between second and third in both scenarios) - the runner may choose to take their award and hope the defense doesn't notice the miss/left early...or the runner may choose to correct their baserunning error. In a left early situation MLBUM specifically says the award is changed to be assessed from the base that was corrected (which you address above) - so even though the TOT award may be home, after returning to the base left early the award is now third base. The answer for scenario 1 is clear. The question is if this is the same for a missed base - scenario 2. Or, if first base was "missed", the runner is still awarded home (the TOT award) after correcting the error? There are at least a couple of people on this thread who posit the award remains home....that the MLBUM ruling is ONLY for a left early situation. My previous post, with limited wording, was simply curious if a BR was treated differently than a runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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