Returning to a base

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

Not only that, but we've so perplexed Mr. Evans that he's invented a distinction regarding a particular calling of time after asserting that MLB doesn't make any distinction regarding the reason for calling time.

So, our official interpretation is:  allow the touch to correct the error, unless the offense calls time?

I think Mr. Evans needs some time to think this through before we run with THAT.   

 

 

I would not say it's anything "official" but more a lamentation...if I interpret this correctly...

1. Mr. Evans believes the current rules do not distinguish why the ball went dead, and therefore the runner can correct his error in ANY dead ball situation

2. Mr. Evans does not agree with that position, and would like to see a distinction, especially if it's the runner who called time

I'd go a bit further - since a runner can't "call" time, I think that's moot.  The umpire grants time.  And, likely, if the runner didn't request it, the defense probably would.  It might be different if the runner CAUSED the dead ball (ie. INT)...but at that point he's out anyway so it's moot.

But I don't disagree in principle - I'd like to see a distinction between a dead ball caused by the ball going out of play vs end of playing action.

[TOMUIC]

That’s basically what Jim Evans is saying. The way it’s interpreted currently (as he said) “ it’s like a ticking time bomb for the umpire”. But right now we have to live with it.

He has brought this up (in the past) to Dusty Dillinger, along with several others who are involved in writing the umpire manual, but nothing has changed yet.

[Richvee]

I really think it's more a loophole in the wording of these rules.....Like I said, these rules are almost exclusively for fixing baserunning errors during dead ball base awards more than fixing baserunning errors after the play is over. It's not in the spirit of the rule, and I don't think it's intended to be interpreted this way. 

[beerguy55]

13 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I really think it's more a loophole in the wording of these rules.....Like I said, these rules are almost exclusively for fixing baserunning errors during dead ball base awards more than fixing baserunning errors after the play is over. It's not in the spirit of the rule, and I don't think it's intended to be interpreted this way. 

I don't disagree, but I think that's why we need an official ruling.

I see three ways to administer/interpret this and all are defensible...even if some are much less desirable than others.

Without citation/rulings there's going to be a tug of war between Spirit/Fair Play and the fundamentalist view, let alone the gray areas in between.

And I'm pretty sure my position is cutting the baby in half.

[Coach Carl]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will wade in one more time:

I do think the rules distinguish different dead balls.  It is right there in the previously quoted rule, 5.06 (c).  5.06(c) creates the standard (nothing may happen) and gives the exception (when something that happened during live action allows runners to move).  It is inherent in the rule itself that some dead balls are treated differently than others.

The logic of the rules goes like this:

1.  The ball is dead.  Does the exception exist?

2.a The exception does not exist so runners cannot move OR

2.b The exception does exist so runners may move.  Consult the rules and guidance that are given to govern how that movement may be done. 

In the OP, we move to 2.a, not 2.b.  Since the runners cannot move, the guidance is irrelavant to the OP's situation (and therefore, his attempt to correct his miss during the dead ball is not recognized). 

 

[Velho]

@Coach Carl I like the logic but read it slightly different. 5.06(b)(3) & (4) exist independently of 5.06(c). For example, 5.06(c) doesn't address thrown balls going out of play.

That said, applying a similar approach to the 5.06(b)(4)(I) comment indicate OP is not under this provision, which is the only place that discusses touching prior bases under dead ball (I think).

Rule 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment: The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: Batter hits a ground ball which an infielder throws into the stands but the batter-runner missed first base. He may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he was “awarded” second base.

If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base."

 A bit more on the scale to not allowing it than "it's icky" (which it is) but, as always, an explicit rules statement would be better.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Velho, OBR 5.06c does address "thrown balls going out of play." It uses the term "overthrow." Here's the definition of the term provided by the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 36):

Overthrow:  A throw that enters dead ball territory or becomes lodged (other than in a glove, a player or coach's uniform, or the catcher's gear).

[Senor Azul]

I also found this nugget in the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual on page 77 in a section about appeals of a runner who misses a base. It's an example play 

EG:  On a batted ball the batter-runner misses first and is safe at second on a close play. He requests and is granted time. He then goes back and touches first and returns to second:  the runner is not allowed to return. He is out on appeal.

 

I think this example has always been in the J/R but I no longer have my old editions of the manual. So perhaps someone who has a copy of an older version of the manual could check please.

[Richvee]

11 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I also found this nugget in the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual on page 77 in a section about appeals of a runner who misses a base. It's an example play 

EG:  On a batted ball the batter-runner misses first and is safe at second on a close play. He requests and is granted time. He then goes back and touches first and returns to second:  the runner is not allowed to return. He is out on appeal.

 

I think this example has always been in the J/R but I no longer have my old editions of the manual. So perhaps someone who has a copy of an older version of the manual could check please.

That’s worded a little odd. Do they mean not allowed to return to second after going back to correct the miss of 1b? Or not allowed to return to 1b to touch……. And stay there. Or not allowed to do either? 

[The Man in Blue]

I take the spirit of BOTH sides of this to be:

The opposing team cannot cause a dead ball in order to prevent an appeal on or correction of a baserunning error.

• The offense cannot ask for time to protect the runner as he goes back to the missed base.
• The defense cannot deliberately throw the ball out of play to prevent the runner from going back.

If the defense causes the dead ball, the runner should be afforded the opportunity to make the correction.  Once the runner makes the correction, he is NOT entitled to advance (sans a base award) though.  In other words, he cannot correct and then try to come back to the furthest base he was at (he was not legally entitled to that base).

If the offense calls time, they cannot take advantage of that stoppage of play to try to correct the error, as this robs the defense of any opportunity at a legal appeal or even a play on the runner.

[Velho]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Velho, OBR 5.06c does address "thrown balls going out of play." It uses the term "overthrow." Here's the definition of the term provided by the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 36):

Overthrow:  A throw that enters dead ball territory or becomes lodged (other than in a glove, a player or coach's uniform, or the catcher's gear).

Thank for pointing that out @Senor Azul. It does come under a section where runners can only get one base though... not sure what to make of that.

 

[The Man in Blue]

@Velho, that section may contain the letter of the law we have been searching for as to why a runner can correct during a dead ball, but may not return.  To the argument I made earlier, he cannot advance (sans award) during a dead ball.  He can go backward to correct, but he cannot come "back" forward after that.