Tag up Rule

[Mike Adams]

I have 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Fly ball to centerfield. The guy on 2nd tags up correctly. The ball comes into 2nd. The guy on 1st did not tag up correctly. SS throws the ball to 1st. 1st baseman does not tag the base, he proceeds to get the runner in a rundown between 1st and 2nd. Runner now on 3rd breaks for home and crosses the plate before the runner is tagged out between 1st and second. Remember the runner from 1st did not tag up correctly. Does the run score or not? Thanks

[beerguy55]

Yes. Tag up appeals are always time plays.  If R3 scores before R1 is put out the run counts.

Defensive coach gets smacked in the head for poor coaching.

[Mike Adams]

24 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Yes. Tag up appeals are always time plays.  If R3 scores before R1 is put out the run counts.

Defensive coach gets smacked in the head for poor coaching.

Thank you for the answer. I was not certain at the time. I did get this call correct though. I did award the run, but it had me thinking a little in a close game for a championship. Just glad I got it right. I have been umpiring for 12 years now, and this play has never occurred the way it happened the other night. I told the team that was in the field that they had every chance to get the out before the run crossed the plate, so I wasn't rewarding them with their mistake. 

[Lou B]

You told the team that was in the field ... - who did you talk to and WHY?

[beerguy55]

33 minutes ago, Mike Adams said:

I told the team that was in the field that they had every chance to get the out before the run crossed the plate, so I wasn't rewarding them with their mistake. 

Don't do this - you've now made it about you...by saying this you're telling the coach that you've made a decision to punish/not reward the defense, and that you have a choice to score the run or not.

No - the rule is the rule.  You couldn't reward them if you wanted to.  The run scored before the third out was made.  Period.   

If you want to make it a teachable moment and let the coach know his player can complete the appeal by touching the base, I think that's fine in the appropriate environment and tone - provided the coach is open to learning/listening.

 

[MadMax]

7 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

I was not certain at the time. I did get this call correct though. I did award the run, but it had me thinking a little in a close game for a championship.

I’m saying this bluntly, because it needs to be said; this isn’t said to be an asshole… 

This cannot – not “should not” – matter. This has to be a call you get right, regardless of the game “importance”. The fact that you “got the call right”, and asked us (your colleagues) about it is either blind luck (or you stumbled into it), or it’s Conscious Competence. Where you want to be, where you’re striving to be, is Unconscious Competence. Identify, process, and call this in your sleep. Automatically. No hesitancy or second guessing. 

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

No - the rule is the rule.  You couldn't reward them if you wanted to.  The run scored before the third out was made. 

So this next bit is to supplement my colleagues’ above answers ( @beerguy55 etc.), not to refute them in any way. This will help to identify the components of the play should it occur again… but of course, in a different form… 

Mike, you mentioned that the ball was caught in CF (F8) for the 2nd Out. Both Runners (R2, R1) tag and advance (R1 doing so improperly, got it). Throw comes to SS (F6)… Did he touch 2B or tag R1 (standing upon 2B) at all? If he did, then the correct call is “Safe”, the touch-appeal on R2 being satisfied, then the tag-of-the-ball upon a Runner in contact with a base (2B) being satisfied. If that F6 had tagged R1 and said, “He left early”… R1 would be Out. That is a valid appeal; the appeal doesn’t have to happen at 1B (where R1 came from). 

So F6 throws to F3 and your rundown occurs, R2 advances to score, and R1 is eventually tagged out. The DHC belts out, “No no no guys! Just touch the base! He left early! Why are you chasing him??!! Mike!! Can we still appeal that?”… 

And you (will) reply, “Sure. The run would still score, though.” You can then explain the (correct) rule, about time plays, et. al. 

Let’s take this one step further… (hey! I’m in PT right now, on my legs, and gotta make up for time AFI!! 🤕)… let’s say that R2 is standing on 3B, and F6 throws it to F3, but F3 fumbles it and the ball rolls out of play. “Time!” you call… “You (R2 on 3B) score!… You (R1 between 1B and 2B), third base!!”, and R1 looks at you, and trots merrily to 2B, and on to 3B. For the simple sake of this play, R1 never touches 1B. Now, can the defense still appeal? Yes! If these are NFHS / Fed rules (or local rules using this method for appeals), then they can simply ask you (the umpire) while the ball is (still) Dead. If you’re using Live ball appeals, then the F1 needs a ball, on the rubber, yadda yadda yadda, PU says, “Play!”, and F1 throws to 1B to make the appeal. Umpire calls R3 (was R1) Out. Successful appeal. 

Run (R2) still scores. 

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

I have 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Fly ball to centerfield. The guy on 2nd tags up correctly. The ball comes into 2nd. The guy on 1st did not tag up correctly. SS throws the ball to 1st. 1st baseman does not tag the base, he proceeds to get the runner in a rundown between 1st and 2nd. Runner now on 3rd breaks for home and crosses the plate before the runner is tagged out between 1st and second. Remember the runner from 1st did not tag up correctly. Does the run score or not? Thanks

Sounds third world but lets talk mechanics. You, BU, have 1B and 2B retouches and touches if we are assuming 2 man. You can't watch both runners touch at the same time. But we are usually lucky in that R2 is close and could tag but R1 knows a fly to F8 when caught will have him out on an advance to 2B and knows that the best thing is to go halfway if the ball is dropped. So BU lines up R2 and as catch takes place peeks at 1B to see if R1 did anything stupid such as not retouch, although he should just touch at that point. So you "safe" the appeal of R2 at 2B when the ball comes in and a smart offense has developed a deke to get a throw to 1B and a rundown while R2, becoming R3 scores. PU has gone to the library, having responsibility for any play at 3B but as there was none returned home to watch the touch of HP. While your PU booked it down to 3B for a possible play there he glanced at R1 to backup you incase 2 things happened at the same time and you were responsible for seeing both of them. As Jim Evans said, get the tag at 2B and swivel your head to 1B. We give the time play signal only for RISP with2 outs. It can happen in many other situations

[noumpere]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Sounds third world but lets talk mechanics. You, BU, have 1B and 2B retouches and touches if we are assuming 2 man. You can't watch both runners touch at the same time.

PU can (and should) help with any retouch at first.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

PU can (and should) help with any retouch at first.

Didn’t I say that?