3 man

[Tborze]

I’m sure this was by design. 

R1. B2 bunts to 3B. F5 throws to 1st. R1 sees nobody covering and continues to 3B. 
 

What is the rotation here?  
The rotation used was questioned because the ball never left the infield.  

[SH0102]

HPU should not rotate on a ball hit in the infield. This is u3 ball.

hPU stays with possible pulled foot and swipe tag and overthrow responsibilities.

U3, recognizing no play at second, should already be moved over to C when r1 takes off.

Get best angle/distance you can without being in the way of throw coming from first.

Not perfect, but even 3 man has holes

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Get best angle/distance you can without being in the way of throw coming from first.

 

Just like the wedge at home, except you'll be behind the play.  Much of the time, you'll end up (nearly) in the baseline because F3's throw will be off and F5 will need to attempt a swipe tag.

[Tborze]

56 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

HPU should not rotate on a ball hit in the infield. This is u3 ball.

hPU stays with possible pulled foot and swipe tag and overthrow responsibilities.

U3, recognizing no play at second, should already be moved over to C when r1 takes off.

Get best angle/distance you can without being in the way of throw coming from first.

Not perfect, but even 3 man has holes

To clarify, what do you mean when you say “U3, recognizing no play at second, should already be moved over to C when r1 takes off.”?

Should he not be in C with R1?

[LC Ump]

U3 is in Deep B with R1 only in 3 man.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, LC Ump said:

U3 is in Deep B with R1 only in 3 man.

Most mechanics give a choice between deep B and deep C although B is most often the better choice. 

[MadMax]

10 hours ago, Tborze said:

Should he not be in C with R1?

Absolutely not. B-deep! The only situations that place U3 in C with a R1 is when it’s R1-R3 and bases loaded. 

With your heels along the grass-dirt line in B-deep, with a ground ball (bunt included!) to F5 – F6, step boldly into the working area, to at least the centerline. Chest to ball, and read true throw. If throw goes to 2B, let the passing ball turn you, and read play at 2B; if throw goes to 1B, glance at R1 touching 2B, and prepare to take him to 3B. Chest to ball at 1B, and read true throw. If R1 truly continues on to 3B, then let throw turn you as you gain angle towards 3B, to read play at 3B. 

This is not a rotation, as the ball stayed on the infield. In the case of a bunt / “sawed off” hit at plate, it is imperative that PU stays at plate to observe potential RLI, not so much pulled foot / swipe tag (because U1 is not inside already, as in 2-man). 

[dumbdumb]

11 hours ago, MadMax said:

Absolutely not. B-deep! The only situations that place U3 in C with a R1 is when it’s R1-R3 and bases loaded. 

With your heels along the grass-dirt line in B-deep, with a ground ball (bunt included!) to F5 – F6, step boldly into the working area, to at least the centerline. Chest to ball, and read true throw. If throw goes to 2B, let the passing ball turn you, and read play at 2B; if throw goes to 1B, glance at R1 touching 2B, and prepare to take him to 3B. Chest to ball at 1B, and read true throw. If R1 truly continues on to 3B, then let throw turn you as you gain angle towards 3B, to read play at 3B. 

This is not a rotation, as the ball stayed on the infield. In the case of a bunt / “sawed off” hit at plate, it is imperative that PU stays at plate to observe potential RLI, not so much pulled foot / swipe tag (because U1 is not inside already, as in 2-man). 

all right @MadMax, are you using your astute observation skills that you saw, from when you were a player on the field (i.e. catcher=leader on the field, as the only player with the whole field in front of him) watching the umpires the whole game with their positioning, or your former padawan training once you moved over to the dark side or the force?

Glad you got that RLI into the equation for when the 3B really comes charging in and makes that throw off the left foot and essentially ends up where the catcher would throw to 1B if he had got to the ball first, or maybe even the pitcher. Nice explanation for the whole sitch. Of course, there could be organizations or MLBU (but that is a 4 man) that let you start in C or even go outside like the old red jacket AL, but that has its disadvantages too, as all positioning (X marks the secret square) does.

P.S. while a player, did you practice copying all the MLB umpires K3 (as opposed to a backwards K3) calls, or were you not into that. just asking. thanks again for getting that RLI in there.

[MadMax]

@dumbdumb, we can’t live by diagrams and manuals. 

For PU, on a ball put in play in the 45-ft zone (3BL45, Mound, 1BL45, HP), the PU has to stay for Fair/Foul anyway. Once determined Fair, and a true throw, the next (natural) priority for PU is RLI. He’s virtually the only participant in the game that can properly see and adjudicate it. Because of where U1 is positioned in 3-man, with R1, he could see RLI, but he’s not actively looking for it, instead preparing for his play at 1B. PU becomes the natural observer for RLI… 

… Why, are we so eager, to get PU out and away from the plate?? The U3 can certainly cover 2 bases (2B and 3B) involving only 1 Runner. All that means is that U3 has to be aware of his location in space, where the baseball is, and what his responsibilities are – in the crew, in that (type of) play – and moving and reacting accordingly. Just because there are more umpires doesn’t mean that allows for less attention, less effort, and less work. It merely distributes it. 

I didn’t learn 3-man (or 4-man) by reading manuals; I learned it by working with and training under guys who perform in 3-man and 4-man, at a variety of systems, on a regular basis. 

[dumbdumb]

21 minutes ago, MadMax said:

@dumbdumb, we can’t live by diagrams and manuals. 

For PU, on a ball put in play in the 45-ft zone (3BL45, Mound, 1BL45, HP), the PU has to stay for Fair/Foul anyway. Once determined Fair, and a true throw, the next (natural) priority for PU is RLI. He’s virtually the only participant in the game that can properly see and adjudicate it. Because of where U1 is positioned in 3-man, with R1, he could see RLI, but he’s not actively looking for it, instead preparing for his play at 1B. PU becomes the natural observer for RLI… 

… Why, are we so eager, to get PU out and away from the plate?? The U3 can certainly cover 2 bases (2B and 3B) involving only 1 Runner. All that means is that U3 has to be aware of his location in space, where the baseball is, and what his responsibilities are – in the crew, in that (type of) play – and moving and reacting accordingly. Just because there are more umpires doesn’t mean that allows for less attention, less effort, and less work. It merely distributes it. 

I didn’t learn 3-man (or 4-man) by reading manuals; I learned it by working with and training under guys who perform in 3-man and 4-man, at a variety of systems, on a regular basis. 

you are 100% right @MadMax. dont let my convoluted way of saying things make it sound like the PU always has to be bolting to 3rd in a 3 man as you well know. that RLI is very important and it cannot be made while making a dash to 3B and doing a head on the swivel a the 45 foot mark or more between 3rd and home. PU needs to stay at HP in this sitch. you are as right as rain with this. keep on instructing.