Correcting your partner: suggestions?

[The Man in Blue]

I started to put this in Mechanics, but I don't think it really fits well there.

My question is: How do you recommend (or how have you) corrected your partner when they make an egregious error?

I ask this because of a few situations I have had recently, on both sides of this s#!+stick.

First one, I was wrong.  I called interference on a batter who didn't move when the catcher attempted to throw out a stealing runner.  I botched it, but what offended me was how my partner handled it.  Instead of coming together and discussing it, we came together and he started immediately and loudly breaking out his credentials.  I took offense to this, got defensive, and shut down the conversation.  Like I said, I know I was wrong.  It got me to thinking about this subject.

Less of an ordeal: A few days later I had a partner ring up a force out that wasn't a force out.  We got together and I asked him what he had.  He said "I have the runner out on the force."  Knowing there was no tag, I tried to offer him a graceful path by asking, "Did you have a tag on the runner at all?"  He said, "Just the force. The ball beat the runner."  I then asked, "And what happened to the runner behind him?"  He looked and realized it.  He made the correction and we had a laugh.  Hey, those things happen.  But it again brought the subject to my mind.

Today: FED rules ... With a runner on first the pitcher fails to pause in his set.  My partner, the BU, calls BALK!  As I jump out from behind the plate, the pitcher delivers the pitch and the batter smacks it to the shortstop who does nothing with it.  R1 "advances" and the batter-runner reaches first "safely."  Both coaches are hopping on this -- the offense wants to decline the balk and let the play stand, the defense is is squawking because the runners are not coming back immediately.  My partner says, "The runner goes back to first because he hadn't reached second when the balk happened and the batter goes back to the plate."  I give a Scooby Doo double-take.  Ruh-roh.  I shew the coaches and players away (well, I try).  I say to my partner "Umm ... NFHS, so the balk is an immediate dead ball."  He says, "Yes.  But the runner doesn't advance.  He was at first, so he goes back to first."  At that point I was just a little stuck ... All I could muster was "Yes, he does."  Usually I do OK with things like this, but I was just so perplexed as to why he thought this that I just didn't.  Afterwards I wondered if he got it mixed up with an illegal pitch in softball, where some codes have (to my disdain) removed the base award.

 

SO ... tips, suggestions?

 

[Catch18]

I get we’re supposed to work as a team, we’re there to support our partners. When someone is wrong on a call (that we can assist with info or a rule understanding) let’s get it right. If he’s just MSU, try to work it out. First it’s just wrong; second, don’t stick the next crew with it; third, puts you in a hell of a position the rest of the game.

I was in a similar situation a week ago. Senior Legion game, I’m PU. R1,
OAC is squawking about it to my partner, never says a word to me. Ok, I don’t care. I’m on the line as the next half inning warms up. My partner, for some damn reason has his water bottle in the home dugout. You do you. He and the AC keep bantering and my partner says, “guys, that’s the high school rule, it’s about safety.” I’ve got the same Scooby Doo huh??? as you did….Finally I had heard the AC whine enough why the BU didn’t call it (3rd chat between he and my partner about it). I holler into their dugout, “it was my call!” Nary another peep about it.

Teamwork is #1. But, if your partner wants to walk the plank - sometimes you just gotta stand midship and salute him on his way down.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Catch18 said:

I was in a similar situation a week ago. Senior Legion game, I’m PU. R1,
OAC is squawking about it to my partner

Looks likes something got edited by mistake @Catch18

[Catch18]

Looks likes something got edited by mistake [mention=4533]Catch18[/mention]

Repaired.

[The Man in Blue]

I'm still missing what happened @Catch18, but the point is an excellent one!

[Catch18]

We had 1 out, I called an easy FPSR.

[MadMax]

On 6/4/2022 at 10:56 PM, The Man in Blue said:

and he started immediately and loudly breaking out his credentials.

Credentials don’t matter $h!t in a game. Even if a member of the crew is the Crew Chief, that title holds largely administrative and ambassadorial responsibilities. Unfortunately, NFHS still deifies the PU as some kind of overriding, final-say, word-is-law overlord. 

Now, at the amateur level, can your call of INT be rectified? Sure. It’ll be messy, and it prompts the discussion that you shouldn’t have made that call from the start, and should not / will not going forward. But it certainly doesn’t require that dude to start proclaiming his (perception of his own) virtues. 🙄

On 6/4/2022 at 10:56 PM, The Man in Blue said:

My partner, the BU, calls BALK!

This call of “Balk” is your anchor point, the fulcrum that everything else you two are about to discuss works upon and around. So… 

On 6/4/2022 at 10:56 PM, The Man in Blue said:

the pitcher delivers the pitch and the batter smacks it to the shortstop who does nothing with it.  R1 "advances" and the batter-runner reaches first "safely."  Both coaches are hopping on this -- the offense wants to decline the balk and let the play stand, the defense is is squawking because the runners are not coming back immediately.

Rules knowledge is sorely lacking, with all participants… the umpires included. 
If this had been OBR, which it wasn’t, but let’s say it was, this play result would have nullified the Balk. It must be said, tho, there is no option – no declining or accepting. However, this was NFHS Rules… surely somebody knew this, right? The Balk call immediately kills the baseball (thus, no pitch), and it must be enforced. R1 is advanced 1 base and is awarded 2B, and the batter resumes his at-bat with, again, no pitch added to the count. 

But then, your BU partner – who called the Balk in the first place – returns R1 to 1B??!! He, in essence, “cancelled” the Balk. So (in essence), if he’s not going to enforce the penalty, then why call it??!! 

Yes, I’m feigning histrionics here. What you’re admitting to, and I do acknowledge and respect that you are admitting to it, is that you let him get away with this idiocy!!! Listen, there’s something to be said about “getting a call wrong” (a mistake), or “poor/rushed judgement” on another, but when one umpire misapplies a rule or makes-$h!t-up-as-a-rule, and then another umpire or the crew is complicit in it, and doesn’t correct it, then the game is damaged. Professionally and personally, I don’t care my partner’s credentials or experience, I’m going to correct the rule, right then and there on the field, before we proceed. While I certainly can control how I go about it (scalpel vs sledgehammer), I cannot control how resistant the guy becomes or how embarrassed he may feel as a result of it. 

The plain simple truth is – the correction must happen. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Professionally and personally, I don’t care my partner’s credentials or experience, I’m going to correct the rule, right then and there on the field, before we proceed. While I certainly can control how I go about it (scalpel vs sledgehammer), I cannot control how resistant the guy becomes or how embarrassed he may feel as a result of it. 

The plain simple truth is – the correction must happen.

👍 Honest conflict over dishonest harmony 

[maven]

Correct my partner? Hell no, she doesn't like that at all.

 

[LRZ]

The image of two umpires arguing, especially if MadMax's "sledgehammer" approach is called for, is frightening. Not only will at least one of the two lose all credibility for the remainder of the game, but forget any idea about teamwork. There is a mechanism for correcting misapplication of a rule or an incorrect ruling: a protest. 

It is also odd to violate one rule* in order to correct another rule violation. 

*OBR 8.02(c): "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it."

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, LRZ said:

The image of two umpires arguing, especially if MadMax's "sledgehammer" approach is called for, is frightening. Not only will at least one of the two lose all credibility for the remainder of the game, but forget any idea about teamwork. There is a mechanism for correcting misapplication of a rule or an incorrect ruling: a protest. 

It is also odd to violate one rule* in order to correct another rule violation. 

*OBR 8.02(c): "No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it."

NCAA would allow an obvious rulekick to be addressed: "Getting the Call Right without the use of video review: SECTION 1. Following are general guidelines for this policy: a. NCAA rule 3-6-g states, “No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision, unless asked by the one making it; however, if there is a misinterpretation of a rule, it should be brought to the attention of the umpire-in-chief.”

Once the crew gets together and discusses, not argues, we go with what the UIC decides.

[LRZ]

OBR likewise has a mechanism for such situations, where the calling umpire asks his partner for information, then the onus of making a final decision is on the calling official. Perhaps I should have made clear that my comment was addressing the possibility of two officials getting into an argument about a rule, not about the "Hey, Bill, what did you have on that play? Here's what I have."

Umpires getting together to discuss a play and rule is one thing; one umpire arguing with and overruling another (i.e., getting out the sledgehammer)--well, that's a story unlikely to have a good ending.

[Dottelife]

First I done this for 20 years from HS to Tball and UIC. Never one time have I ever flexed my credentials on or off a field. Had a few try and I told them it does not impress me. 
second you better dam well never and I mean never show me up on a field. We are a team and neither of us are perfect. If I need help or a second opinion I will come to you and ask. If you want me come to me and ask. You better not tell a coach or player I blew a call or give them a funny look. I have worked with men that were so bad behind a plate Ray Charles could have called a better game and not one time did I throw them under the bus. Worst I ever had was doing basketball had a young partner that was green but trying. I hear someone in the stands say horrible call you are garbage. It was the red for the next game sitting in the stands with his ref shirt on. I ejected him and then called my boss who fired him over the phone. We are a team and have to work together. 

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, MadMax said:

But then, your BU partner – who called the Balk in the first place – returns R1 to 1B??!! He, in essence, “cancelled” the Balk. So (in essence), if he’s not going to enforce the penalty, then why call it??!! 

Yes, I’m feigning histrionics here. What you’re admitting to, and I do acknowledge and respect that you are admitting to it, is that you let him get away with this idiocy!!! Listen, there’s something to be said about “getting a call wrong” (a mistake), or “poor/rushed judgement” on another, but when one umpire misapplies a rule or makes-$h!t-up-as-a-rule, and then another umpire or the crew is complicit in it, and doesn’t correct it, then the game is damaged. Professionally and personally, I don’t care my partner’s credentials or experience, I’m going to correct the rule, right then and there on the field, before we proceed. While I certainly can control how I go about it (scalpel vs sledgehammer), I cannot control how resistant the guy becomes or how embarrassed he may feel as a result of it. 

I was wondering the same thing ... why did you call it if you weren't going to enforce it?  (This wasn't younger kids where we work with them.)

Oh no, I put the runner on second, so we didn't kick the hole hog.  It was just that the whole situation was so awkward that it left me flabbergasted.  I was looking for tips on how I could have handled that better.  We (I) got the call right and the coaches appreciated that ... but my partner lost a lot of face and I am pretty sure he was ticked at me the rest of the day.  (I won't rub salt in that wound with the rest of what he did because I want this focused on tips to help us all in these situations.)

And on the interference I kicked ... yeah, I admit I kicked it -- I wasn't even trying to defend it.  My reaction was to shut the whole conversation down since we weren't talking about the play, just his station compared to mine.

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, maven said:

Correct my partner? Hell no, she doesn't like that at all.

 

Giving this a like, but the heart is for Stephanie Beatriz ... 😍

[Rich Ives]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:25 AM, Catch18 said:

I get we’re supposed to work as a team, we’re there to support our partners. When someone is wrong on a call (that we can assist with info or a rule understanding) let’s get it right. If he’s just MSU, try to work it out. First it’s just wrong; second, don’t stick the next crew with it; third, puts you in a hell of a position the rest of the game.

I was in a similar situation a week ago. Senior Legion game, I’m PU. R1,
OAC is squawking about it to my partner, never says a word to me. Ok, I don’t care. I’m on the line as the next half inning warms up. My partner, for some damn reason has his water bottle in the home dugout. You do you. He and the AC keep bantering and my partner says, “guys, that’s the high school rule, it’s about safety.” I’ve got the same Scooby Doo huh??? as you did….Finally I had heard the AC whine enough why the BU didn’t call it (3rd chat between he and my partner about it). I holler into their dugout, “it was my call!” Nary another peep about it.

Teamwork is #1. But, if your partner wants to walk the plank - sometimes you just gotta stand midship and salute him on his way down.

Legion officially uses OBR with modifications.

 

[Catch18]

Legion officially uses OBR with modifications.
 

I know that. Unfortunately my partner did not. I was merely pointing out the cringe moment he said it.

[MadMax]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:22 PM, LRZ said:

The image of two umpires arguing, especially if MadMax's "sledgehammer" approach is called for, is frightening.

On 6/6/2022 at 3:10 PM, LRZ said:

Umpires getting together to discuss a play and rule is one thing; one umpire arguing with and overruling another (i.e., getting out the sledgehammer)--well, that's a story unlikely to have a good ending.

The sledgehammer should be frightening. This is DEFCON 1, the nuclear option. The sledgehammer does, and has to, exist, though, so as to have an escalating scale of resolution. It has to exist so as to say, “You know, we shouldn’t be yelling at each other over this.” But, even as nation-states get pigheaded and refuse to listen to reason while negotiating, that “last measure to resort to” has to be there, known to both parties. 

And no, a protest is not the last measure available to an umpire crew. Why? Because an umpire crew (is supposed to) succeeds as a crew, and fails as a crew. 

Again, I’m not talking judgement. I’m talking rules application. Of course, the most poignant example of this was that Mexican Pro League crew that, on a full swinging strike that everyone in the park and on TV witnessed, refused to rectify once the Plate Umpire declined to call it as a swinging strike. Once beseeched, the U1 further compounded the problem by calling “no swing”, likely because he didn’t want to overturn / refute his PU and save the PU’s pride or embarrassment. Well, the League fired the PU and U1, and suspended U2 and U3, because they declined to step in and rectify the situation. 

I’ll tell you this much – I do not want to lose my job (of umpiring) because my partner wants to be obstinate a$$, misapply a rule, and it goes to protest review. No way. 

FWIW, I take mostly a scalpel, or at worst a steak knife, approach. 🙂

[LRZ]

MadMax, I am going to disagree with you on this. What if your partner goes to his "nuclear option" option and continues to argue back? 

I would approach my partner, but at some point, I would mentally shrug my shoulders, "Well, this is on you, buddy." There is an (in)famous video, widely circulated in basketball circles, of two basketball referees arguing at mid-court, after one of them stepped (improperly and inappropriately) on his partner's call, then insisted he was correct. His error was compounded by "bad optics," as they say.

Fortunately, I imagine that umpires who frequent this forum (or any other reputable on-line officiating resources) would not be that obstinate, so let's hope that we are never put in this position.

[ElPolloDiablo]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:56 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Today: FED rules ... With a runner on first the pitcher fails to pause in his set.  My partner, the BU, calls BALK!  As I jump out from behind the plate, the pitcher delivers the pitch and the batter smacks it to the shortstop who does nothing with it.  R1 "advances" and the batter-runner reaches first "safely."  Both coaches are hopping on this -- the offense wants to decline the balk and let the play stand, the defense is is squawking because the runners are not coming back immediately.  My partner says, "The runner goes back to first because he hadn't reached second when the balk happened and the batter goes back to the plate."  I give a Scooby Doo double-take.  Ruh-roh.  I shew the coaches and players away (well, I try).  I say to my partner "Umm ... NFHS, so the balk is an immediate dead ball."  He says, "Yes.  But the runner doesn't advance.  He was at first, so he goes back to first."  At that point I was just a little stuck ... All I could muster was "Yes, he does."  Usually I do OK with things like this, but I was just so perplexed as to why he thought this that I just didn't.  Afterwards I wondered if he got it mixed up with an illegal pitch in softball, where some codes have (to my disdain) removed the base award.

 

SO ... tips, suggestions?

 

Yikes! This is a rules issue, and if it wasn't an issue in the game (I can't believe the coach on offense didn't melt down), then you should bring it up post game. But do it like this:

"Hey, I think *we* screwed up that balk. I think *we* should have awarded one base to the runner."

Address it as if you guys are a single entity, and you aren't putting the blame on him.

[The Man in Blue]

Follow up: worked with him again today.  One of the first things he says: "Hey, I'm sorry about that balk thing the last time we worked together.  That coach just had me seeing red and I blanked on it."

I laughed and told him I just wasn't sure how to react, but I wasn't going to let us get it wrong.

It's all good!