Fed Wrong Count

[Guest Al Dugan]

HSBV.  Bottom of the first.  First batter.  I am on the bases, and the plate umpire gives a BB on a 2-2 pitch.  No one comes to me to check.  Am I under any obligation to correct the count?  Or, do I need to wait until asked, which no one does.  

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, Guest Al Dugan said:

HSBV.  Bottom of the first.  First batter.  I am on the bases, and the plate umpire gives a BB on a 2-2 pitch.  No one comes to me to check.  Am I under any obligation to correct the count?  Or, do I need to wait until asked, which no one does.  

Maybe you had it wrong?

 

Flash the count to the PU.  Let him decide how to proceed.

[Senor Azul]

Under FED rules, both teams are responsible to know the count and the number of outs. And to answer your question—no, you are not under any obligation to correct the count. In fact, by rule you should wait to be asked:

2020 NFHS rule 10-1 ART. 4 . . . Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. But if there is reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made. The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it.

OBR rule 8.02c says it even more explicitly--… No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it…

[Rich Ives]

 

14 hours ago, Guest Al Dugan said:

HSBV.  Bottom of the first.  First batter.  I am on the bases, and the plate umpire gives a BB on a 2-2 pitch.  No one comes to me to check.  Am I under any obligation to correct the count?  Or, do I need to wait until asked, which no one does.  

Bet you had it wrong because there's no way the whole defensive team and their fans would let it slide. 

[MadMax]

19 hours ago, Guest Al Dugan said:

HSBV.  Bottom of the first.  First batter.  I am on the bases, and the plate umpire gives a BB on a 2-2 pitch.  No one comes to me to check.  Am I under any obligation to correct the count?

This is a tricky little onion... several layers... 

Context matters, so let's start peeling that away... 

High School Boys Varsity (?). So that means NFHS "Fed" Rules. 

Bottom of the inning means that the Home team is batting. In amateur baseball, in lieu of an official scorer / scorebook, the Home team is the official book. This has the possibility of coming into play, but likely doesn't affect the course of events as insidiously as it potentially could. 

This means that there's no-one on base. This is important to the context of what I'm about to advise. If there had been Runners, it is incredibly important to either proactively clarify the count (when able), or to only correct it once all play(s) have ceased. 

Maybe some of my colleagues are misreading this, and reading "check" on a potential check-swing-appeal (which is a judgement call, both on the PU in HS baseball (to grant or make the appeal) and the BU to judge on the check swing appeal; this much is completely true). I'm not addressing PU's judging the pitch a Ball, but I'm with you Al Dugan, on clarifying what the count is/was. Was that Ball 3 or Ball 4? – that is what's being questioned. Now, it's entirely possible you were incorrect, as @Rich Ives points out. But, let's go with that you were "better than uncertain" that the count was 2-2. You remembered each of those pitches that got it to 2-2. Maybe there were five or six foul-offs amongst the lot, and that's why your PU missed, or in this case, erroneously added a Ball. Well, in amateur baseball, it doesn't hurt to ask once all play has ceased. If you're in A, thinking / fairly certain it's 2-2, and the pitch comes in and is called a Ball, and Batter starts trotting down towards you at 1B, but the PU isn't ushering him back, then you should start your pivot in... check and watch the touch of 1B by said B(R), and then call "Time!". Discreetly, just ask, "Charlie, are you certain that was Ball 4? I had that as Ball 3." Most amateur umpires will entertain that question, "Yup, Al, that was Ball 4" or "Huh! Well... let's check... " and glance at his indicator, or will (try to) recall the pitches of the at-bat sequence, or... and this is where the Home scorebook comes into play... ask the home book what count they had. 

I'd be lying if I said this hasn't happened to me, in the 14 years I've been doing this. I've been both the PU and the BU in this sort of scenario (Hey! When you're doing 6-7 games per day in 90º+ heat, all them pitches sometimes blend together!), and I will tell you, it doesn't hurt to ask. But, know when to ask, and don't make a frequency or habit of this. 

A correction / clarification of the count like this is not questioning a (fellow) umpire's judgement; instead, it is clarifying a rule (albeit a fundamental, rather innocuous one). This is akin to a pitch coming in on Ball 4 and going to-and-thru the backstop. PU calls "Time!" and (mistakenly) awards BR second base. As BU, I'm not questioning PU's call of "Ball" to make it Ball 4, nor am I questioning his judging of the pitched ball going out-of-play. Instead, by rule, the BR is only to be awarded 1 base – first base. Not second. So, as an umpire, I am obliged to correct it; or, at the very least, to clarify it ("Hey Charlie, was that still a pitch, or did you have F2 propelling it out of play?"). However, we're only going to correct it after play has ceased and the ball is Dead. Flip the scenario around... Say it's 3-1, and the pitch comes in, and is judged (by PU) as a Strike and is not caught by F2. Batter takes off for 1B. F2 comes up and throws to F3 covering. As BU, I'm not going to kill the play because I'm confident that I'm right that it's now only 3-2... I'm going to observe the entirety of the play. Then we call Time and ask. "Charlie... did you have 3-2 on that? I'm quite certain that the count, before that last pitch, was 3-1." Charlie's going to tell me 1 of 3 things, and – here's the important part, I have to keep any affect on my ego in check, whether positive or negative – they will be along the lines of: 

1. Yes, Al, it was 3-2. Scorebook can/will verify. (You gotta pay better attention, Al.)
2. I called it a Ball. (Irrespective of it being 3-1 or 3-2... doesn't matter, it's a BB, the BR gets 1B)
3. Huh! I thought... <checks>... You're right, Al. I was mistaken. The count was 3-1. Batter, back to the box. The count is now 3-2. 

I mention the "ego" aspect, because if you get your ego involved, it can get bruised and despondent in the first two responses; conversely, it can get boastful and over-inflated from the third response. There's no place for an out-of-whack ego in this game, as an umpire. 

So, if you're the only one that is (or seems to be) paying attention to the count, different from the PU, then by all means ask. Just discern your time to do so, and don't make an active habit of it.

[Guest Al Dugan]

10 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

 

Bet you had it wrong because there's no way the whole defensive team and their fans would let it slide. 

I had it right.  The PU had a bit of a medical issue after the top of the inning and retrieved his inhaler from his pocket and used it discreetly out of view.  I think he never cleared the last batter.  But, the defensive team did raise only an eyebrow and didn't protest too much.  When the first base coach came out for the next inning he asked me about the count, and I shrugged.  At that point there was no purpose to throwing the PU under the team bus.  

I think it is difficult to raise the question in real time.  The catcher and the pitcher said nothing at the moment, and I just did the pivot and watched him touch first and the game went on.  

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Guest Al Dugan said:

I think it is difficult to raise the question in real time.  The catcher and the pitcher said nothing at the moment, and I just did the pivot and watched him touch first…

Not difficult at all. I just explained how to do it, completely in the moment in real time. You (properly) did the front half of the process… then it’s just a matter of understanding the context you’re in, suppress your ego, and ask. 

[beerguy55]

On 5/1/2022 at 10:37 PM, Senor Azul said:

2020 NFHS rule 10-1 ART. 4 . . . Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. But if there is reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made. The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it.

OBR rule 8.02c says it even more explicitly--… No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it…

 

17 hours ago, MadMax said:

A correction / clarification of the count like this is not questioning a (fellow) umpire's judgement; instead, it is clarifying a rule (albeit a fundamental, rather innocuous one).

These two don't seem to reconcile.  Sounds like OBR/FED wants you to keep your mouth shut even when you know your partner is factually wrong...if nobody complains, no harm no foul, I guess.

Seems fundamentally wrong to me, but I understand the potential cans of worms (especially if the BU is in fact mistaken)...and if nobody is objecting...however, I think the can of worms of not doing anything, not being proactive, is larger.

I would posit that this is neither judgment nor a rule that is being reversed/criticized/question.   It's a summary of fact.  For example - the umpire judged the previous three pitches to be balls, properly following the rules to assess his judgment.  That is neither being questioned nor criticized.  He then declares the count to be 2-1.   That's neither judgment nor rule violation...that's simply faulty memory.  There's no obligation to correct him if the offense doesn't complain????   Sounds like you're just inviting a mess.  "Both teams are required to know the count and the number of outs" is just an excuse to shirk culpability.  The umpires are also required to know the count and number of outs...crazy enough, that's one of the things they're paid to do.   I lost track the number of times where it wasn't clear if an umpire called a ball or a strike...or everyone believed something was called a ball, but it was a strike.    If the BU and PU aren't on the same page, there's a decent chance some of the players are on a different page too.

 

Another example - after several batters, errors, runs and pitching changes a team finally gets it's second out.  A few batters later the PU, for whatever reason says there's one out...nobody really notices the error, except the BU, who KNOWS (strongly believes) there are two outs.  Are we really saying that BU has no obligation to clarify that statement...and rather that he should just let play continue and when the actual third out occurs, to not saying anything about the inning being over...and then simply wait for another 5-6 batters to come out before someone on the defense notices that "hey, wait a minute, there are already three out" and deal with that SH*#show that could have been avoided???

Sounds like terrible advice.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

 

These two don't seem to reconcile.  Sounds like OBR/FED wants you to keep your mouth shut even when you know your partner is factually wrong...if nobody complains, no harm no foul, I guess.

Seems fundamentally wrong to me, but I understand the potential cans of worms (especially if the BU is in fact mistaken)...and if nobody is objecting...however, I think the can of worms of not doing anything, not being proactive, is larger.

I would posit that this is neither judgment nor a rule that is being reversed/criticized/question.   It's a summary of fact.  For example - the umpire judged the previous three pitches to be balls, properly following the rules to assess his judgment.  That is neither being questioned nor criticized.  He then declares the count to be 2-1.   That's neither judgment nor rule violation...that's simply faulty memory.  There's no obligation to correct him if the offense doesn't complain????   Sounds like you're just inviting a mess.  "Both teams are required to know the count and the number of outs" is just an excuse to shirk culpability.  The umpires are also required to know the count and number of outs...crazy enough, that's one of the things they're paid to do.   I lost track the number of times where it wasn't clear if an umpire called a ball or a strike...or everyone believed something was called a ball, but it was a strike.    If the BU and PU aren't on the same page, there's a decent chance some of the players are on a different page too.

 

Another example - after several batters, errors, runs and pitching changes a team finally gets it's second out.  A few batters later the PU, for whatever reason says there's one out...nobody really notices the error, except the BU, who KNOWS (strongly believes) there are two outs.  Are we really saying that BU has no obligation to clarify that statement...and rather that he should just let play continue and when the actual third out occurs, to not saying anything about the inning being over...and then simply wait for another 5-6 batters to come out before someone on the defense notices that "hey, wait a minute, there are already three out" and deal with that SH*#show that could have been avoided???

Sounds like terrible advice.

By rule the UIC is only charged with counting balls and strikes. In OBR the official scorer officially tracks the  outs. In OBR the scorer is the one that is responsible to notify the teams if sides change before three are out. Check the book if necessary.

And again, why would any team worth being on the field also lose track and thus not object?

[beerguy55]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

By rule the UIC is only charged with counting balls and strikes. In OBR the official scorer officially tracks the  outs. In OBR the scorer is the one that is responsible to notify the teams if sides change before three are out. Check the book if necessary.

And I ask once again, if an umpire KNOWS there are three outs, but the other umpire, the scorekeeper, the teams, seem to think there are only two outs, for any number of reasons, (or scorekeeper simply doesn't notice the mistake), the best/smartest/recommended choice for said umpire is to keep his mouth shut??  Really?

Same principle on the count.   BU knows that pitch was strike three, or knows it was ball four, but nobody else notices/complains...he should just keep his mouth shut...really?  Is that the world we live in?

2 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

And again, why would any team worth being on the field also lose track and thus not object?

Very easy to lose track of the count...especially if there's a borderline pitch, or a check swing, and ump doesn't give a clear mechanic.  Or lots of foul balls and pick off attempts.   In many cases you simply end up in a scenario where coaches/players are not 100% sure, and/or are doubting themselves, so not confident enough to bring it up.   Many are simply likely to conclude they must have lost count... "If the PU says it's 2-2 he's probably right...I must have made a mistake. "  At rec levels, maybe that team is not recording balls/strikes in any way (not on scorebook, not in gamechanger, not with a clicker, etc) - going by memory.  It happens.  Even if they are recording it in some way many will simply assume they got distracted and made a mistake.

[Mister B]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

A few batters later the PU, for whatever reason says there's one out...nobody really notices the error, except the BU, who KNOWS (strongly believes) there are two outs.  Are we really saying that BU has no obligation to clarify that statement...and rather that he should just let play continue and when the actual third out occurs, to not saying anything about the inning being over...and then simply wait for another 5-6 batters to come out before someone on the defense notices that "hey, wait a minute, there are already three out" and deal with that SH*#show that could have been avoided???

If anything changes on the field the partners should be confirming # of outs and rotations. If something isn't right, call time and make sure you are on the right page. As a base umpire, balls and strikes are mostly the plate umpire's responsibility, I'm going to assume that they are correct.