Player/DH scenario

[eagle_12]

In my little head I’m thinking my train of thought is what would correct application of the rule, but I would think might be an unintended consequence, and may work its way in as the rule matures. May have been discussed before, just thinking scenarios out.  

Come along for the ride. 
 

Lineup card presented as #1 Jones F3/DH

after 2 innings, Jones has booted grounders and let balls scoot past him, coach has had enough. 
 

#10 Smith F3, #1 Jones DH.   Legal, we’re all good
 

inning goes by, and Smith isn’t any better. 
 

coach: I’d like to bring Jones back in to play 1st- still good, Jones never left the game, was a starter, no issues. Smith-have seat, you’re done for the game. 
 

On the lineup card is Jones now F3/DH, or F3 and it’s straight-9 

 

I’m thinking he’s just F3.  When smith came in defensively, Jones lost F3/DH and became just DH.  
 

by Jones, being the DH, taking a defensive position, the “DH” is terminated. So we’re down to a straight-9. 
 

Looked a rule book and case book, not spelled out. Have to piece together different rules.  

[ousafe]

3 hours ago, eagle_12 said:

I’m thinking he’s just F3.  When smith came in defensively, Jones lost F3/DH and became just DH.

Disagree.

I'd have him still as F3/DH, based on 3.1.4F.

[Thunderheads]

6 hours ago, ousafe said:

Disagree.

I'd have him still as F3/DH, based on 3.1.4F.

I agree with this ..... Jones can re-enter, he does so as F3, and he never left the DH spot, ... so, he remains the same as when the game started. 

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

I agree with this ..... Jones can re-enter, he does so as F3, and he never left the DH spot, ... so, he remains the same as when the game started. 

Taking this a step further, so while Jones is occupying both the DH and position at this time, Jones has used his one reentry.  So, if he is removed again, he is done. If one person takes his place, the DH would be done or would both the DH and position still be separated?

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Taking this a step further, so while Jones is occupying both the DH and position at this time, Jones has used his one reentry.  So, if he is removed again, he is done. If one person takes his place, the DH would be done or would both the DH and position still be separated?

Good question .......... watching

[Senor Azul]

Don’t have a 2020 NFHS rules book. Found the following in a video posted on YouTube by the Old Dominion Umpire Association (ODUA). Guessing they are in Virginia.

Kelly is the LF/DH. In the 3rd inning, Jones substitutes for Kelly as the left fielder.

·        In the 4th inning, Kelly returns as the left fielder.

·        In the 5th inning, Armstrong substitutes for Kelly in left field.

·        May Kelly remain as the DH?

·        RULING: No. Kelly, having been removed from the game twice, is no longer eligible to play in any capacity. The role of the DH has ended since Armstrong now must bat for himself.

Rule 3-1-4b

[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Good question .......... watching

From NFHS 2020 rule revisions. Grammar is a little vague but I would say the player has used his reentry:

”

NFHS DH RULE 2020

Player may be listed as both the fielder and the DH.
Player may be substituted for  defensively and still be the DH.
Once the DH is substituted for on offense, the role of DH is terminated for the game 
and only one player may occupy that spot in the batting order.
If the pitcher or catcher are listed as P/DH or C/DH they are NOT allowed courtesy runners.*
The player listed in the starting lineup as Fielder/DH may come out of the game in either role and re-enter once.” 

[ousafe]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Taking this a step further, so while Jones is occupying both the DH and position at this time, Jones has used his one reentry.  So, if he is removed again, he is done. If one person takes his place, the DH would be done or would both the DH and position still be separated?

When using player/DH, that first p/dh (Jones) is the only one who can be DH for their team in the whole game. Once he is subbed out on offense, the DH is terminated.

[Jimurray]

44 minutes ago, ousafe said:

When using player/DH, that first p/dh (Jones) is the only one who can be DH for their team in the whole game. Once he is subbed out on offense, the DH is terminated.

The question regarding the OP is if the player/DH is subbed out on defense, still in the game as DH, and then reenters on defense as the the current player/DH, has he used the one starter reentry and any defensive replacement of him would not allow a reentry. The 2020 interps seem to indicate that: The player listed in the starting lineup as Fielder/DH may come out of the game in either role and re-enter once."

[ousafe]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

The 2020 interps seem to indicate that: The player listed in the starting lineup as Fielder/DH may come out of the game in either role and re-enter once."

hmm... That seems to directly contradict 3-1-4b-2: [DH is terminated when] "The starting defensive player/DH is substituted for either as a hitter or a runner."

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, ousafe said:

hmm... That seems to directly contradict 3-1-4b-2: [DH is terminated when] "The starting defensive player/DH is substituted for either as a hitter or a runner."

There is a difference between the DH position being terminated and the player’s ability to reenter. 

[ousafe]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

There is a difference between the DH position being terminated and the player’s ability to reenter. 

Copy that. I was responding to @BLWizzRanger, not the OP, which I think got us crosswired. I see now - he could sub out on offense (terminating the DH) and then later reenter, just not as "P/DH", he's just a "player" at that point.  Makes total sense.

[Richvee]

 The rule states when a p/DH is removed on defense and then re/ enters on defense, he is  still the p/DH. However, his reentry  technologically has terminated the DH. because, if he is removed again, from either spot, he is done for the game in any capacity, including his role as DH. And being done for the game, the player that replaced him on defense the second time is now in that spot in the batting order as well.