Question on missing a base.

[Coachhimup]

This will be my first year being an umpire after being a hsfb coach of 23 years. Always been amazed by umpires.

 

But any how. I've taken and passed the exam. But I still study every night and during my plan period. I'm taking this online quiz here is the question:

 

Bases loaded 2 outs. BR walks. Catcher gets the ball throws it to first ball goes to right field. R3 and R2 score, r1 to the third BR goes to 2nd. Defense appeals that BR missed first. How many runs scored, zero right?

 

Could someone please clarify to me as of why? Is it because he missed first which was a force play with 2 outs?

 

Just want to be sure thanks

 

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[Senor Azul]

Even though the batter-runner passed first base he never touched it. That means he never legally acquired first base and so rule 9-1-1a would apply.

NFHS rule 9 SECTION 1 HOW A TEAM SCORES

ART. 1 . . . A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:

a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 9.1.1 Situation D:  With two outs, R3 on third base and R1 on first base. B5 receives a fourth ball. An overthrow at third permits R3 to reach home. In advancing (a), R1 fails to touch second or (b) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base. RULING:  Upon appeal, the umpire will rule R1 out for failing to touch second base in (a) and B5 out for failing to touch first base in (b). The run by R3 will not count in either case. (8-2 PENALTY)

[Coachhimup]

12 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Even though the batter-runner passed first base he never touched it. That means he never legally acquired first base and so rule 9-1-1a would apply.

NFHS rule 9 SECTION 1 HOW A TEAM SCORES

ART. 1 . . . A runner scores one run each time he legally advances to and touches first, second, third and then home plate before there are three outs to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home plate during action in which the third out is made as follows:

a. by the batter-runner before he touches first base; or

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 9.1.1 Situation 😧  With two outs, R3 on third base and R1 on first base. B5 receives a fourth ball. An overthrow at third permits R3 to reach home. In advancing (a), R1 fails to touch second or (b) B5 goes to second base but fails to touch first base. RULING:  Upon appeal, the umpire will rule R1 out for failing to touch second base in (a) and B5 out for failing to touch first base in (b). The run by R3 will not count in either case. (8-2 PENALTY)

Thank you!!

[noumpere]

14 hours ago, Coachhimup said:

Could someone please clarify to me as of why? Is it because he missed first which was a force play with 2 outs?

Good explanation -- to or by a coach.

 

But, now that you are an umpire, you should know that BR can never be forced to first.

[Coachhimup]

Good explanation -- to or by a coach.
 
But, now that you are an umpire, you should know that BR can never be forced to first.

Thank you! Glad you pointed that out. That's why I joined this group. I want to learn as much as I can.

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[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Good explanation -- to or by a coach.

 

But, now that you are an umpire, you should know that BR can never be forced to first.

It's bad enough that FED has one erroneous reference to it being a force play but now NCAA implies the same thing with an this years edit of their force play slide rule:

"SECTION 4. The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs, except it does not apply to the batter-runner at first base."

[Velho]

 

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It's bad enough that FED has one erroneous reference to it being a force play but now NCAA implies the same thing with an this years edit

So does OBR https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

"Definitions of Terms

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

1. (a)  A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays."

 

... and MLB https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

"Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

[SH0102]

10 minutes ago, Velho said:

 

So does OBR https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

"Definitions of Terms

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

1. (a)  A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays."

 

... and MLB https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

"Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

Well a batter is obligated to be in the batters box while hitting and once they hit the ball fair, they can not stand at home without liability to be put out by tagging batter or by tagging first base, so technically they must attempt to advance to first…so with that definition they are using I get it , correct or not  <shrug > 

[Coachhimup]

Well a batter is obligated to be in the batters box while hitting and once they hit the ball fair, they can not stand at home without liability to be put out by tagging batter or by tagging first base, so technically they must attempt to advance to first…so with that definition they are using I get it , correct or not   

So the BR is a force out at 1st.

That's how I phrased my original question

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[Jimurray]

43 minutes ago, Coachhimup said:

So the BR is a force out at 1st.

That's how I phrased my original question

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It's not a force by rule but nobody should have a conniption if it's called a force for the purpose of not scoring a run. But as NCAA has discovered some one has called it a force for application of their force play slide rule and, going the least resistance route, NCAA does not say the play at 1B is not a force, they say the force play slide rule does not apply there.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

 

So does OBR https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

"Definitions of Terms

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

1. (a)  A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays."

 

... and MLB https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play

"Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

great find. of course not out of their rule book from but the people who think they know. It's a distinction without a difference as regards to scoring a run which is the only application of the rule/rules that matter.

 

[Replacematt]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It's not a force by rule but nobody should have a conniption if it's called a force for the purpose of not scoring a run. But as NCAA has discovered some one has called it a force for application of their force play slide rule and, going the least resistance route, NCAA does not say the play at 1B is not a force, they say the force play slide rule does not apply there.

I don't read that clause that way. To me, it implies that it's acknowledging that FPSR does not apply at first base precisely because it's not a force. I see nothing there that says there's a force at first.

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, Matt said:

I don't read that clause that way. To me, it implies that it's acknowledging that FPSR does not apply at first base precisely because it's not a force. I see nothing there that says there's a force at first.

By adding the first base exclusion they are implying that some people who read “force play at any base” consider it a force play at 1B. That exclusion was not there in years past and I don’t think most of us would think a force play at any base would include 1B. Why add that exclusion?

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

By adding the first base exclusion they are implying that some people who read “force play at any base” consider it a force play at 1B. That exclusion was not there in years past and I don’t think most of us would think a force play at any base would include 1B. Why add that exclusion?

Because, as you said, some people consider it a force play (mistakenly.) This accounts for their error.

[Coachhimup]

So is the issue is the wording ?

Also 1st base is NOT a force play?

Another question/scenario:

Bases loaded 1 out. BR hits line drive to left field. R3 scores, R 2 scores, r1 misses 2nd Base ends up on 3rd, BR ends up on 2nd. Defense successfully appeals. Do the runs count?

I've been studying so much seems like it's running together on me.

Thanks for the discussion I really appreciate it

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[Replacematt]

44 minutes ago, Coachhimup said:

So is the issue is the wording ?

Also 1st base is NOT a force play?

Another question/scenario:

Bases loaded 1 out. BR hits line drive to left field. R3 scores, R 2 scores, r1 misses 2nd Base ends up on 3rd, BR ends up on 2nd. Defense successfully appeals. Do the runs count?

I've been studying so much seems like it's running together on me.

Thanks for the discussion I really appreciate it

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1st base is not a force play. This is academic in most cases.

And yes, the runs count in your play as there would only be two outs at the end of it. How can I word this without being confusing...if the there is (are) appeal(s) on a play that is (are) not the third out, it means nothing for runners that have scored unless the appeal is on a runner that scored, in which case only their run gets erased. If the play results in a third out, then there is the possibility that runs can be erased on other runners.

The rulebooks are necessary, but I feel that they are not the best way to learn the rules. For OBR, I'd suggest this: https://www.ump-attire.com/Products/PBUC-UMPMAN/Minor-League-Baseball-Umpire-Manual-Rulebook and/or the Wendlestedt Rules and Interpretations Manual (you'll have to contact them directly.) Note that this is not binding on HS baseball or leagues that use FED rules.

I don't do youth baseball, but I know several sanctioning bodies have their own interpretation manuals (Little League, for one.)

[Velho]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

1st base is not a force play. This is academic in most cases.

When is it in not academic?

[Replacematt]

12 minutes ago, Velho said:

When is it in not academic?

Honestly, it's so academic that I can't remember off the top of my head due to its rarity. I want to say there are two cases in which it would make a difference, and I can't recall them. 

[Senor Azul]

What they are trying to tell you is that one cannot say a batter-runner is a force out because it does not meet the actual official definition found in the rule book--

2021 OBR Definitions of Terms A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Although the high school rule 8-2-8 comes close to making U-E heads explode by lumping in batter-runners to its description of when a runner is forced to move…

ART. 8 . . . A runner acquires the right to the proper unoccupied base if he touches it before he is out. He is then entitled to this base until he is put out, or until he legally touches the next base while it is unoccupied or until a following runner is forced (2-24-1) to advance to the base he has occupied. A runner need not vacate his base to permit a fielder to catch a fly ball in the infield, but he may not interfere.

So for all intents and purposes retiring the batter-runner at first base by just stepping on the base is the same as a force out. It’s been that way since the very beginning.

Under the original 1845 Knickerbocker rules, a runner could be put out by tagging the base a runner was attempting to reach, whether he was “forced” by a runner behind him or not. An 1848 amendment limited this practice to first base only. So the “automatic out” at first base for the BR actually predates our modern definition of the term force play.

[Velho]

21 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

2021 OBR Definitions of Terms A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

OBR also explicitly refers to an out at first as a force play in the DOUBLE PLAY term (one could also argue the FORCE PLAY definition covers the BR in the "runner legally" once the batter becomes a runner - granted it is recursive).

Irregardless I don't think the whole thing is something worth getting spun up about. The harm in doing so seems trivial (at most) and the gain with lay folk greater than zero. The purpose of language is to communicate and I don't think we need to be pedantic in this case. Just my $0.02.

 

"A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

1. (a)  A force double play is one in which both putouts are force plays.

2. (b)  A reverse force double play is one in which the first out is a force play and the second out is made on a runner for whom the force is removed by reason of the first out. Examples of reverse force plays: runner on first, one out; batter grounds to first baseman, who steps on first base (one out) and throws to second baseman or shortstop for the second out (a tag play). Another example: bases loaded, none out; batter grounds to third baseman, who steps on third base (one out); then throws to catcher for the second out (tag play)."

[Replacematt]

40 minutes ago, Velho said:

OBR also explicitly refers to an out at first as a force play in the DOUBLE PLAY term (one could also argue the FORCE PLAY definition covers the BR in the "runner legally" once the batter becomes a runner - granted it is recursive).

The batter-runner never occupies a base, thus they are not forced.

I agree that this is, in practicality, a conversation about angels dancing on the head of a pin.

[Velho]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

The batter-runner never occupies a base, thus they are not forced.

home is a "base" 😈 but I'll give you that BR never "occupies" [end:arguing just to argue]

 

14 minutes ago, Matt said:

angels dancing on the head of a pin

Nice, haven't heard that in a while. "Picking fly poop from pepper" and doing unsavory things to ants are the one I hear more often lately.

[Senor Azul]

The status progression of a player goes like this—batter, batter-runner, and then he becomes a runner. All these terms are defined in the OBR Definitions of Terms.

A BATTER is an offensive player who takes his position in the batter’s box.

BATTER-RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just finished his time at bat until he is put out or until the play on which he became a runner ends.

A RUNNER is an offensive player who is advancing toward, or touching, or returning to any base.

I suppose you could say that a batter-runner occupies a base for a very short period of time. But his status usually changes to that of runner quickly. I don’t think you could ever state that the batter occupies home plate. And when his status changes to batter-runner he can never actually occupy home. In fact, if he returns there he will be declared out.

And the FED definition of batter found in rule 2-7-1 actually says he is the player entitled to occupy either of the batters’ boxes.

[Coachhimup]

This is good discussion. This is how most of us hs football coaches spend our Sundays in the coaches office.

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[beerguy55]

On 1/29/2022 at 2:56 PM, Matt said:

The batter-runner never occupies a base, thus they are not forced.

I agree that this is, in practicality, a conversation about angels dancing on the head of a pin.

The batter-runner is forced to advance by the On-Deck Batter becoming a batter.

To be honest with you, the batter-runner's situation is more permanent...it's a superforce.  The runners can at least have their force removed by a following runner getting put out.  The batter-runner doesn't have that luxury.   

The batter has no choice in the matter.  The play can't end, and no pitch can be thrown to the next batter, until the batter-runner either reaches first base, or is put out.  What is his status before those happen if it is not "forced"?  Obligated?  Required?  Constrained?  Purgatory?   If it looks like a duck...

On 1/28/2022 at 4:36 PM, Jimurray said:

It's bad enough that FED has one erroneous reference to it being a force play but now NCAA implies the same thing with an this years edit of their force play slide rule:

"SECTION 4. The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs, except it does not apply to the batter-runner at first base."

So, by rule, the batter-runner may completely destroy F3 in an attempt to break up a double play.  Glad they cleared that up.

 

On 1/29/2022 at 6:16 AM, Matt said:

I don't read that clause that way. To me, it implies that it's acknowledging that FPSR does not apply at first base precisely because it's not a force. I see nothing there that says there's a force at first.

The use of the word "except" says there's a force at first...ie. "This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base...except it does not apply to the batter-runner at first base."

If first base isn't a force-play situation they don't need to say "except"...this grammatical choice of a qualifier implies that, for all intents and purposes, it is.   More than just acknowledging that's how it's perceived.

Otherwise, it would read "This rule pertains to a force-play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs; it does not apply to the batter-runner at first base"  or perhaps "there is never a force-play at first base"...those two options, or something like them, would make the last part of the statement more a reminder of a fact, rather than a qualifier.  The choice to use "except" is deliberate.

No one should ever be corrected on the distinction between R1 forced to leave first, and the batter forced to leave the batter's box.  There is no practical difference in how the game is operated or managed.  And it is also grammatical correct.  It's simply a way for experienced umpires to say "Actually...I'm smarter than you".   It's Mensa for umpires.  

As long as there are still umpires who call appeal plays force plays I'm not going to worry about someone calling the play at first a force.   I'll be first in line for any petition that gets OBR/FED/MLB/FBI/Oxford Dictionary to officially acknowledge it as such.