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Jimurray

3 man rotation when ball stays in the infield.

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18 minutes ago, Young_Ump said:

I start going that way (as PU) just in case, sometimes weird stuff happens and it's good to be ready to cover. I've heard yes and no from different people.

FWIW for any LL guys, LL's 60' mechanics say no.

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I'm just going to ask if you read the topic title.

And for the record, in the 2-umpire system, no credible set of mechanics has PU going to third with the ball in the infield.

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

With R1 and a ground ball to the infield does PU rotate to 3B if R1 is safe at second or no play is made at 2B?

No.

Keep in mind that in a 3-umpire system, if PU rotates, U1 comes down to the plate (assuming no one goes out.) You aren't going to want that to happen with BR now at first, and he can't if there's a play on BR.

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1 minute ago, Matt said:

No.

Keep in mind that in a 3-umpire system, if PU rotates, U1 comes down to the plate (assuming no one goes out.) You aren't going to want that to happen with BR now at first, and he can't if there's a play on BR.

My association mechanic does that and I agree U1 can't cover home so maybe the PU goes back if necessary. But CCA and my last PBUC reference don't address this sit with R1. BTW some 2 man mechanics do have the PU cover 3B if R1 is safe at 2B on a ground ball to the infield. 

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

My association mechanic does that and I agree U1 can't cover home so maybe the PU goes back if necessary. But CCA and my last PBUC reference don't address this sit with R1. BTW some 2 man mechanics do have the PU cover 3B if R1 is safe at 2B on a ground ball to the infield. 

They don't address it because it's not an approved mechanic. 

The only 2-umpire system that has PU cover 3B on a ball in the infield is FED, and I direct you to my previous comment on the subject.

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No, in 3-man, with R1, the only time PU rotates to 3B is on a ball that exits the infield, whether by grounder thru, liner, or fly ball.

So, let's cover how this works for various places the ball goes. Again, with R1 (only), U1 is in A, and U3 is in B-deep:

  1. Grounder thru the infield, any direction. Heading towards 3B, PU mirrors the movement of R1 to 2B, and as soon as he rounds 2B and commits to 3B, notifies / announces / calls to his U3 crewmate that he has 3B. This is a rotation (half of it; U1 only "completes" the other half, and rotates to HP if/when R1 commits to 3B).
  2. Liner to the outfield, any direction between F7 and F9. Same as (1).
  3. Liner to right field, Fair/Foul determination by U1. If U1 judges and signals Fair, and then sinks to watch the touch of 1B by BR, then PU is to rotate to 3B to take up position on the outside (foul side). Once BR has touched 1B, U1 will release BR to U3, and rotate to HP (calling "Rotate! Rotate!" to his crewmates). If U1 goes out (down RFL) to judge Fair/Foul (thus, a longer determination), then PU rotates to 3B to take up position on the inside (fair side), anticipating a possible overthrow / mishandled reception, and R1 advancing to HP, which PU will have to move to cover. U1 is out, and must remain out. This reverts to 2-man mechanics.
  4. Liner to left field, Fair/Foul determination by PU. Move towards 3B, in a controlled manner, on the line so as to first judge Fair/Foul, and any potential catch/no-catch. Signal appropriately. If Fair, complete the rotation by arriving at 3B in the best position reflective of the throw. Once BR has touched 1B, U1 will be reading R1's movements, and if he commits to 3B, U1 will complete the rotation just like (3b).
  5. Fly ball to right field. U1 goes out (and should, with no or 1 runner on, and from A position). This reverts to 2-man. Rotate in accordance to ball/runner status (ball is uncaught, move towards 3B while mirroring R1; ball is caught (trouble catch), move towards 3B if/when R1 tags and advances; ball goes over the fence (HR), position yourself so you can watch the touches of 3B and HP by both R1 and BR).
  6. Fly ball to left field. Begin to move towards 3B. Catch/no-catch is U3's responsibility, but anticipate if the ball is uncaught. Rotate accordingly.
  7. Fly ball to left field, Fair/Foul "trouble" ball. As soon as it becomes PU's Fair/Foul call, it is also Catch/No-Catch. Move towards 3B in a controlled manner, just like (4). If Fair, and Uncaught, complete the rotation. If caught, complete the rotation only if R1 advances to R2 and commits to 3B.

Did I miss any?

Oh, besides this... grounder / pop-up / bunt that stays in the infield? No rotation. Not even on an overthrow.

If there is some guidance from a manual somewhere that directs U3 to go out in Play (6), then U1 is reacting accordingly (coming in on a D&G / pivot), and PU is rotating to 3B as per 2-man mechanics.

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33 minutes ago, Matt said:

They don't address it because it's not an approved mechanic. 

The only 2-umpire system that has PU cover 3B on a ball in the infield is FED, and I direct you to my previous comment on the subject.

What's not addressed is what should happen on a ball to the infield with R1 in the 3 man CCA or PBUC manual. I would assume there is no PU rotation. The CCA 3 man manual only addresses balls to the outfield.

But in 2 man Jim Evans had the PU cover 3B with R1 and a ground ball to the infield with R1 safe at 2B and he and the ball going to 3B. The reasoning being that the PU was already out by the 3B side of the mound for the slide at 2B. CCA does the same on page 62. 

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13 hours ago, Matt said:

And for the record, in the 2-umpire system, no credible set of mechanics has PU going to third with the ball in the infield.

 

 

My 2015 CCA has PU rotating to third "if R1 is safe and attempts to advance to third" and "PU is responsible for any play at third and home."  I never liked that, so I'm glad it has apparently changed.

 

I agree it's not needed in 3-man -- that's (part of ) what U2 is there for.

 

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59 minutes ago, noumpere said:

 

 

My 2015 CCA has PU rotating to third "if R1 is safe and attempts to advance to third" and "PU is responsible for any play at third and home."  I never liked that, so I'm glad it has apparently changed.

 

I agree it's not needed in 3-man -- that's (part of ) what U2 is there for.

 

It hasn’t changed. 2020 CCA says the same thing. But if you are in the vicinity because you went there to check the slide at 2B why not make a call at 3B if there is a play there?

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It hasn’t changed. 2020 CCA says the same thing. But if you are in the vicinity because you went there to check the slide at 2B why not make a call at 3B if there is a play there?

Because you are out of position for a swipe tag and pulled foot calla t first -- and those two happen more often than the next play at third.

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24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Because you are out of position for a swipe tag and pulled foot calla t first -- and those two happen more often than the next play at third.

So how would you modify the CCA mechanic?

"Action on the field: Double-play ground ball to third base, with a throw to second base followed by a throw to first base.

Umpire responsibilities:

PU: Moves toward the third-base side of the pitcher’s mound to assist U1 on the slide at second base by R1. If R1 is out, PU stays with the slide to ensure the slide was legal then turns toward first base for secondary responsibility on a swipe tag and/or pulled foot at first base. If R1 is safe and attempts to advance to third, PU has responsibility for play at third if ball and runner come together. PU is responsible for all plays at home.

U1: Moves into the best position to rule on plays at first or second base, including a drift toward first on the attempted double play. U1 is responsible for the illegal slide until he turns toward first base to rule on the play there."

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So how would you modify the CCA mechanic?

"Action on the field: Double-play ground ball to third base, with a throw to second base followed by a throw to first base.

Umpire responsibilities:

PU: Moves toward the third-base side of the pitcher’s mound to assist U1 on the slide at second base by R1. If R1 is out, PU stays with the slide to ensure the slide was legal then turns toward first base for secondary responsibility on a swipe tag and/or pulled foot at first base. If R1 is safe and attempts to advance to third, PU has responsibility for play at third if ball and runner come together. PU is responsible for all plays at home.

U1: Moves into the best position to rule on plays at first or second base, including a drift toward first on the attempted double play. U1 is responsible for the illegal slide until he turns toward first base to rule on the play there."

 

 

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The way we've been doing it for years--PU goes to the 1B side, not 3B side.

That's why I was having such a brain fart--I know of no one who uses a mechanic with PU going to the left side of the infield.

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

The way we've been doing it for years--PU goes to the 1B side, not 3B side.

That's why I was having such a brain fart--I know of no one who uses a mechanic with PU going to the left side of the infield.

Who's we? My state used to do it the PBUC/CCA way and changed to the 1B side a few years ago for a better angle on the slide and to be closer to 1B for the swipe or pull. I tried it and didn't like the possibility of a pitcher or BU moving into my view of the slide so I am still doing it the CCA way. MiLB also has the PU cover 3B on that sit (R1 safe at 2B and he and the ball are going to 3B) also. Are you saying you have college assignors that want you on the 1B side. But let's say we do it your way. We still probably have a PU closer to 3B than the BU with a similar angle. Are you going to let him make the call behind you. Even though my state wants the 1B side they still have the PU cover 3B if there is an overthrow.

Segue: This will lead to a discussion of a possible better mechanic for this sit. BU stays at 2B and the PU goes down the 1B line to make the call at 1B. We've discussed before and most don't want to change because it only works with R1 only.

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Who's we? My state used to do it the PBUC/CCA way and changed to the 1B side a few years ago for a better angle on the slide and to be closer to 1B for the swipe or pull. I tried it and didn't like the possibility of a pitcher or BU moving into my view of the slide so I am still doing it the CCA way. MiLB also has the PU cover 3B on that sit (R1 safe at 2B and he and the ball are going to 3B) also. Are you saying you have college assignors that want you on the 1B side. But let's say we do it your way. We still probably have a PU closer to 3B than the BU with a similar angle. Are you going to let him make the call behind you. Even though my state wants the 1B side they still have the PU cover 3B if there is an overthrow.

Segue: This will lead to a discussion of a possible better mechanic for this sit. BU stays at 2B and the PU goes down the 1B line to make the call at 1B. We've discussed before and most don't want to change because it only works with R1 only.

I have never worked for a college assignor who didn't want us on the 1B side. I'd rather take the chance of having someone blocking my view of the slide than having an angle that doesn't allow me to see 3/4ths of the criteria I need to see to determine if it's legal or not.

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54 minutes ago, Matt said:

I have never worked for a college assignor who didn't want us on the 1B side. I'd rather take the chance of having someone blocking my view of the slide than having an angle that doesn't allow me to see 3/4ths of the criteria I need to see to determine if it's legal or not.

Ok, so Some college assignors are modifying CCA mechanics. No big deal. Who do they want to call the rare advance of R1 to 3B when it happens? 

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5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Ok, so Some college assignors are modifying CCA mechanics. No big deal. Who do they want to call the rare advance of R1 to 3B when it happens? 

BU. The thing is not to go to 3B, but go to the 45'--doing that means that there's usually only about 60' to move before you have an angle.

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

BU. The thing is not to go to 3B, but go to the 45'--doing that means that there's usually only about 60' to move before you have an angle.

Agreed that it's BU.  The drop-step that BU needs to make is not much different from how BU covers a steal of second.

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

BU. The thing is not to go to 3B, but go to the 45'--doing that means that there's usually only about 60' to move before you have an angle.

 

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Agreed that it's BU.  The drop-step that BU needs to make is not much different from how BU covers a steal of second.

I'm confused. Would you guys draw me a pic.

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3 hours ago, Jimurray said:

 

I'm confused. Would you guys draw me a pic.

Here's what I'm saying.

BU takes the path of the red arrow. In reality, the path will be from wherever they are to an area within that triangle--the further they can get to the foul line, the better, but the key is to get from the starting point to anywhere in that area as quickly as possible. If they're in the vicinity of C, for example, they'll gain an angle by moving almost directly towards home.

15748870725ddedea0b71e8.jpg.4247c288302debdc1ddd1c279bbc162a.jpg

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Am I reading things wrong but was this not started as 3 man rotation ?

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11 minutes ago, Ump29 said:

Am I reading things wrong but was this not started as 3 man rotation ?

Yes, and that was settled as no PU rotation to 3B with a ball to the infield in any other mechanics than my state. But there was a statement that in 2 man no credible mechanics had the PU cover 3B on a ground ball, possible DP, when R1 was safe at 2B and might advance to 3B on an overthrow or whatever. CCA and MiLB are credible and do have that mechanic but @Matt and @noumpere and apparently some college assignors do not like that mechanic.  

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42 minutes ago, Matt said:

Here's what I'm saying.

BU takes the path of the red arrow. In reality, the path will be from wherever they are to an area within that triangle--the further they can get to the foul line, the better, but the key is to get from the starting point to anywhere in that area as quickly as possible. If they're in the vicinity of C, for example, they'll gain an angle by moving almost directly towards home.

15748870725ddedea0b71e8.jpg.4247c288302debdc1ddd1c279bbc162a.jpg

On a botched DP with the BR and R1 safe and the ball overthrown why not let the PU, even from the 1B side of the mound, get to that triangle and let the BU cover any possibility of a throw to 2B? If this was a word of mouth, assignor clinic taught mechanic, (probably not many 2 man college clinics anymore) do they tell the PU to book it back home and let the BU cover the throw to either 2B or 3B?

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57 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

On a botched DP with the BR and R1 safe and the ball overthrown why not let the PU, even from the 1B side of the mound, get to that triangle and let the BU cover any possibility of a throw to 2B? If this was a word of mouth, assignor clinic taught mechanic, (probably not many 2 man college clinics anymore) do they tell the PU to book it back home and let the BU cover the throw to either 2B or 3B?

I'd be worried about covering HP on an overthrow on the play at 3B. If PU takes the play at 3B (getting into that triangle), he's going to have some trouble getting into a good position to take a play coming from the fence around 3B.

With BU taking the play at 3B (getting as close to the triangle as possible), it gives PU the chance to get closer to the plate for any potential play there - and it keeps BU close enough to the working area to take any play at 2B (if BR was safe at 1B).

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And, PU has a better look at whether the overthrow (at / past first) goes OOP and then still has time to go home if a play should develop there.

PU's movement on the initial play is (a) similar to his movement with no one on, except closer to the mound or (b) similar to his movement in 1-person (eek!) mechanics -- out toward F4 (in a normal position), set for any play at second, then a step or two toward the line for the pulled foot / swipe tag at first.

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