NFHS Forced Slide force at home

[Guest MichaelS55]

Bases loaded. Fielder playing "cutthroat" (fielder lined up on in-field grass) Slow roller to F5 who kicks it and get a hold of it. Hesitated then threw home. By the time he made the throw the R3 was almost home. Probably 10 paces. Throw was off line slightly. F2 was able to catch it leaning towards home dugout with his foot on plate. R3 had beat the throw and made incidental contact as he ran through the plate. F2 held on to ball and made no throws.  U1 called him safe defensive side asked if he would talk to me (U2) about play. I interpreted force slide rule as the runner still had time to decide to slide and should of and by not sliding he was out. So U1 overturned his call. Was I right? (Thankfully it did not affect outcome of game as team who lost the run still won by a lot) But I still want to have the correct ruling as it is only fair to the players in future games. 

Thank you 

Michael   

[Thunderheads]

2 minutes ago, MichaelS55 said:

I have the same team tomorrow. (The one that lost the run) Should I mention to coach I got it wrong because he wasn't sure of the rule either. Its modified baseball if that changes things. 

If you'd like to clarify things with him and because he didn't know either, than that ( TO ME) shows your credibility and a learning moment for both of you.  I've done that before and have garnered quite a bit of respect from it, but, ...it's YOUR CALL on what you're comfortable with saying

[Thunderheads]

NFHS?   Sorry, that interpretation is wrong.   A runner is never required to slide, but if they do so, it must be legal.  Sorry I don't have the cite reference on -hand

[MichaelS55]

11 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

NFHS?   Sorry, that interpretation is wrong.   A runner is never required to slide, but if they do so, it must be legal.  Sorry I don't have the cite reference on -hand

I have the same team tomorrow. (The one that lost the run) Should I mention to coach I got it wrong because he wasn't sure of the rule either. Its modified baseball if that changes things. 

I'm first year and was working with another first year so things were a little shaky all around. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by MichaelS55
Adding that im first year

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, MichaelS55 said:

I have the same team tomorrow. (The one that lost the run) Should I mention to coach I got it wrong because he wasn't sure of the rule either. Its modified baseball if that changes things. 

Your post says it's NFHS?   If so, I found it for you....

[MichaelS55]

Thank you for the help. I think I will talk to the coach about it tomorrow. 

[yawetag]

I wouldn't talk to the coach about it. Certainly talk to your partner - away from the field and not while you're dressing for the game - but don't talk to the coach.

There are very few situations where that turns out well in the long run. I don't suspect this is one of them.

[Thunderheads]

16 minutes ago, yawetag said:

I wouldn't talk to the coach about it. Certainly talk to your partner - away from the field and not while you're dressing for the game - but don't talk to the coach.

There are very few situations where that turns out well in the long run. I don't suspect this is one of them.

@MichaelS55 .... Andrew also has a good point, no doubt, and you'll probably have others chime in and concur w/ him.   Again though... this is all personal preference.  With our association I work in, we have all contact info for ADs and coaches (cell phones and emails).   In strange situations with disputes or confusion, I've emailed a coach about what happened in the game the next morning and have ALWAYS received very appreciative responses, henceforth, creating very respectable rapport.

CAVEAT:  This is NOT for everyone, and it's NOT done all the time.  Certain situations,... this can be ok, others not so much.  Use discretion.  But for me, it's worked in the past with ZERO issues.  That said, I'm older (53) and look at life/situations differently.  We're all human, communicate like one  

[maven]

1 hour ago, Guest MichaelS55 said:

Throw was off line slightly. F2 was able to catch it leaning towards home dugout with his foot on plate.

This tells us nothing. Different fields have the home dugout on different sides. I'm guessing it was the 3B dugout.

1 hour ago, Guest MichaelS55 said:

R3 had beat the throw and made incidental contact as he ran through the plate. F2 held on to ball and made no throws.

Well, 'incidental contact' is already a judgment call: by using it, you've determined that the contact caused no hindrance. If correct, that call would entail that there was no INT, and so no illegal alteration of F2's play.

Another umpire, however, might have seen the play differently: perhaps the contact knocked F2 off balance, so that he could not get a throw off to another base in time, and THAT was why he held the ball. In that case, the umpire should think that the contact was NOT incidental, that it was hindrance, and could properly rule it a FPSR violation. But short of that, I don't see any likelihood of FPSR here.

1 hour ago, Guest MichaelS55 said:

I interpreted force slide rule as the runner still had time to decide to slide and should of have and by not sliding he was out. So U1 overturned his call. Was I right?

The rule mentions nothing about "having time to decide," and no rule states that a runner who fails to slide is out. The rule has been posted, so I won't rehash it (or pile on any further).

And please don't undercut your own credibility in the next game by starting it with a discussion of how you booted a call in the previous one. Focus on the next play: the diamond is no place for history lessons.

[humanbackstop19]

I believe home is the exception to being able to slide through the base in FED anyways.  If the runner "made incidental contact as he ran through the plate" as quoted in the OP, I've got nothing, slide or no slide.  

[maven]

3 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I believe home is the exception to being able to slide through the base in FED anyways.  If the runner "made incidental contact as he ran through the plate" as quoted in the OP, I've got nothing, slide or no slide.  

1. The exception applies only to sliding through the base and making contact with a fielder. This runner didn't slide, so he doesn't get the exception.
2. If the contact is ruled incidental, that entails that it was legal. So other elements of the FPSR rule (such as the exception) are moot.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

And please don't undercut your own credibility in the next game by starting it with a discussion of how you booted a call in the previous one. Focus on the next play: the diamond is no place for history lessons.

 

3 hours ago, yawetag said:

I wouldn't talk to the coach about it. Certainly talk to your partner - away from the field and not while you're dressing for the game - but don't talk to the coach.

There are very few situations where that turns out well in the long run. I don't suspect this is one of them.

It's all well and good to keep away from the coach to protect your ego, until of course the exact same play occurs in the next game and you call it exactly opposite you did the night before.  That will help your credibility.

Educate the coach.  It will help him in the long run.  It will help his relationship with you in the long run. It will help him with the call with other umpires in the future.   The vast majority of coaches will respect and appreciate it, and the upside far outweighs the downside - as long as you can get past the idea of admitting you made a mistake to a lowly coach.

The coaches that won't appreciate it, or will throw it in your face, have the same ego problem, and you're never going to be able to do anything right with them anyway.  If you know that coach is that type, then yeah, dismiss it.  Otherwise, take a chance.

[humanbackstop19]

20 minutes ago, maven said:

1. The exception applies only to sliding through the base and making contact with a fielder. This runner didn't slide, so he doesn't get the exception.
2. If the contact is ruled incidental, that entails that it was legal. So other elements of the FPSR rule (such as the exception) are moot.

Agreed.  I was essentially saying there was no cause to penalize the runner for doing what he was expected to do by rule, slide or no slide.  The throw brought the C into a protected area, causing the incidental contact.  Incidental being the key word, meaning no intent to interfere by the runner.

[Thunderheads]

2 hours ago, maven said:

This tells us nothing. Different fields have the home dugout on different sides. I'm guessing it was the 3B dugout.

Well, 'incidental contact' is already a judgment call: by using it, you've determined that the contact caused no hindrance. If correct, that call would entail that there was no INT, and so no illegal alteration of F2's play.

Another umpire, however, might have seen the play differently: perhaps the contact knocked F2 off balance, so that he could not get a throw off to another base in time, and THAT was why he held the ball. In that case, the umpire should think that the contact was NOT incidental, that it was hindrance, and could properly rule it a FPSR violation. But short of that, I don't see any likelihood of FPSR here.

The rule mentions nothing about "having time to decide," and no rule states that a runner who fails to slide is out. The rule has been posted, so I won't rehash it (or pile on any further).

And please don't undercut your own credibility in the next game by starting it with a discussion of how you booted a call in the previous one. Focus on the next play: the diamond is no place for history lessons.

Although the bolded is understood and makes perfect sense, ....  my comments were not directed at clarifying anything on the field.  @maven ...I know you didn't say this to me per say, I was just clarifying it for @MichaelS55 

[yawetag]

10 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

It's all well and good to keep away from the coach to protect your ego, until of course the exact same play occurs in the next game and you call it exactly opposite you did the night before.  That will help your credibility.

Educate the coach.  It will help him in the long run.  It will help his relationship with you in the long run. It will help him with the call with other umpires in the future.   The vast majority of coaches will respect and appreciate it, and the upside far outweighs the downside - as long as you can get past the idea of admitting you made a mistake to a lowly coach.

The coaches that won't appreciate it, or will throw it in your face, have the same ego problem, and you're never going to be able to do anything right with them anyway.  If you know that coach is that type, then yeah, dismiss it.  Otherwise, take a chance.

You want to educate the coach? Then do it by email and when you know you don't have him again soon. I've had one situation where I kicked a rule on the field that was questioned by the coach (we advanced R2-only when I was hit as BU by a batted ball). After the game, we looked it up and realized we missed it. I'd worked with the coach many times and had a friendly rapport with him, so I emailed him. Never got a response and nothing was ever said by him after that. But I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have that mutual respect with him.

Never, never, never educate a coach on your missed call when you're standing at the dish for your pre-game conference. And certainly don't walk to his dugout before the game and do the same. If you're worried about calling it differently the next time he sees you, then you can educate him when he comes out to question you on it. Tell him you kicked it the previous game but looked it up afterward and know the current ruling is correct.

Would you talk to a coach at a pre-game conference about a "bad call" question he had another night with a different umpire? Then why would you do it to yourself? I have no problem at all with you realizing you kick a call, but you don't bring that on the field the next time.

[Thunderheads]

38 minutes ago, yawetag said:

You want to educate the coach? Then do it by email and when you know you don't have him again soon. I've had one situation where I kicked a rule on the field that was questioned by the coach (we advanced R2-only when I was hit as BU by a batted ball). After the game, we looked it up and realized we missed it. I'd worked with the coach many teams and had a friendly rapport with him, so I emailed him. Never got a response and nothing was ever said by him after that. But I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have that mutual respect with him.

Never, never, never educate a coach on your missed call when you're standing at the dish for your pre-game conference. And certainly don't walk to his dugout before the game and do the same. If you're worried about calling it differently the next time he sees you, then you can educate him when he comes out to question you on it. Tell him you kicked it the previous game but looked it up afterward and know the current ruling is correct.

Would you talk to a coach at a pre-game conference about a "bad call" question he had another night with a different umpire? Then why would you do it to yourself? I have no problem at all with you realizing you kick a call, but you don't bring that on the field the next time.

this is a perfect explanation of what I said earlier and the detail where I was mentioning 'some situations' .... best way is in bold above