Fair or Foul

[johnnyg08]

I was reading the 2018 MLBUM the other day and came across what appears to be a new interpretation of a fair ball. Does this change the old definition/interp of a fair ball where any part of the ball could be over fair territory even if the "base" of the ball was resting in foul territory? Or does it mean something else?

 

 

[Jimurray]

47 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I was reading the 2018 MLBUM the other day and came across what appears to be a new interpretation of a fair ball. Does this change the old definition/interp of a fair ball where any part of the ball could be over fair territory even if the "base" of the ball was resting in foul territory? Or does it mean something else?

 

 

On a thread on another forum quite a few years ago one poster quoted an MLB ump that did not agree with Jim Evans regarding that ball being fair. He must have gotten his way with the powers that be. But what about a ball that rolls and touches 1B but is not touching the white line? 

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

On a thread on another forum quite a few years ago one poster quoted an MLB ump that did not agree with Jim Evans regarding that ball being fair. He must have gotten his way with the powers that be. But what about a ball that rolls and touches 1B but is not touching the white line? 

Fair by rule (the "touching a base" is in the definition, I think) -- which is why the new MLBUM interp makes no sense (to me)

[johnnyg08]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

Fair by rule (the "touching a base" is in the definition, I think) -- which is why the new MLBUM interp makes no sense (to me)

Wouldn't that be a fair ball...as it has always been? 

[johnnyg08]

Here are a few images I found on a quick google search that may help with the disussion:

While none of these, except maybe the middle one illustrates exactly what we're discussing it may help paint a clearer picture. 

[Jimurray]

10 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Wouldn't that be a fair ball...as it has always been? 

Yes but a millimeter short of touching the base would now be foul if there was dirt between the bottom of the ball and the white line while part of the ball was over fair territory. And what about a fly ball to the outfield? Do they have to use instant replay to see if the ball compressed the dirt enough to contact fair territory when it contacts foul territory but part of it is over the white line?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

Here are a few images I found on a quick google search that may help with the disussion:

While none of these, except maybe the middle one illustrates exactly what we're discussing it may help paint a clearer picture. 

Using strict geometry and assuming a non compressible flat surface almost half of the ball must be over the white line to be fair by the MLBUM interp. But we would have to account for seam protrusion depending on the oreintation of the ball. Does the ump have to allow for dirt compression and chalk dust height to determine fair or foul now. Have we been using the wrong mechanic to get in line with the line and should be busting inside to check for dirt between the bottom of the ball and the line?

Edited June 25, 2018 by Jimurray
Added seam caveat

[Richvee]

I have to agree, this interp makes no sense. As @Jimurray says, a ball that stops rolling 1mm in front of 1st or 3rd base, with the "base of the ball" just off the line it's foul. However, if it rolls another mm parallel to the line and touches the bag it's fair? (or it could even veer a little further off the line and still kiss the edge of the bag and be fair). That's just wrong.

[Jimurray]

So CWS Arkansas vs Oregon State. URF line read MLBUM but video review crew did not. Or ball compressed foul grass enough to contact fair territory. Or MLBUM interp only applies to a stationary ball between 3B and HP or 1B and HP that has dirt between its bottom and the white line 

[Senor Azul]

The 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual has exactly the same text as the MLBUM does. The text is labeled as a new interpretation that takes effect for the 2018 season--a batted ball must physically contact fair territory in order to be fair.

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

The 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual has exactly the same text as the MLBUM does. The text is labeled as a new interpretation that takes effect for the 2018 season--a batted ball must physically contact fair territory in order to be fair.

“When in contact with the ground” implies a batted ball at rest. But if they mean any batted ball how do they want us to rule on a fly ball to the outfield that catches the white line on the blades of grass with, lets say, a quarter of the ball and hits the hard ground, never compressing the ground enough to contact fair territory below the grass. 

Do they realize a sphere can only be in contact with a non compressible flat surface at 1 point on its surface. 

Somebody wrapped his head around the word “settle” and did not think it through. A ball catching almost half the line could be foul if you see dirt as in Jim Evans clinic demo which calls it fair but if it made a dimple in the dirt when it came to rest it might then touch the line as the point contact expanded to a spherical cap. 

[beerguy55]

On 6/25/2018 at 9:34 PM, Richvee said:

I have to agree, this interp makes no sense. As @Jimurray says, a ball that stops rolling 1mm in front of 1st or 3rd base, with the "base of the ball" just off the line it's foul. However, if it rolls another mm parallel to the line and touches the bag it's fair? (or it could even veer a little further off the line and still kiss the edge of the bag and be fair). That's just wrong.

 

On 6/25/2018 at 9:09 AM, Jimurray said:

Yes but a millimeter short of touching the base would now be foul if there was dirt between the bottom of the ball and the white line while part of the ball was over fair territory. And what about a fly ball to the outfield? Do they have to use instant replay to see if the ball compressed the dirt enough to contact fair territory when it contacts foul territory but part of it is over the white line?

I'll go one further on this bad bad bad ruling.

That same ball that is 1 mm from third base is now foul...but if it is lifted straight up 1 mm off the ground it is "over fair territory", and if touched by the fielder would be fair.

So, if the fielder touches it while it is rolling and it contact with the ground, it would be foul...if the ball bounces and is touched in the air it would be fair.   Happy trails to you umpires that now not only have to determine foul/fair, but also ground/air.

Jeebus Christ.

[Jimurray]

19 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

 

I'll go one further on this bad bad bad ruling.

That same ball that is 1 mm from third base is now foul...but if it is lifted straight up 1 mm off the ground it is "over fair territory", and if touched by the fielder would be fair.

So, if the fielder touches it while it is rolling and it contact with the ground, it would be foul...if the ball bounces and is touched in the air it would be fair.   Happy trails to you umpires that now not only have to determine foul/fair, but also ground/air.

Jeebus Christ.

The video in this CCS article suggests that the author had some knowledge of the MLB rationale for the interp:  https://www.closecallsports.com/2018/07/ask-uefl-judging-fly-ball-as-fair-or.html#disqus_thread . They wanted to avoid an issue that might happen with instant replay due to the conflicts in fair foul rule in the book but did not want to rewrite the rule. IMHO they should rewrite the rule or add a bunch of other interps to address the issues the the original interp causes. In the meantime even an MLB ump should disregard the interp and call fair and let IR mess with it. 

[Jimurray]

In last nights COL-MIL game there was a foul fly down the RF line that went to replay for some reason. I did not see URF, Tumpane give a fair point but did see a time or foul call after the ball went out of play. It appears it was called fair and bases awarded but replay called it foul. This ball was foul even without the MLBUM interp but if Tumpane called it fair he did because he perceived some part of the ball over fair territory when it hit which would make it fair until the MLBUM interp or he used the MLBUM wording and called it fair because the depth of the ball's divot allowed it to be in contact with fair territory when it was in contact with the ground. The safest call, given the MLBUM interp, is fair.

https://www.mlb.com/video/blackmons-foul-ball-on-review/c-2513622183?tid=63817564