Out of play

[Guest Steve]

Runner on first, line drive to short,  short catches play tries to double of runner, shortstop overthrows first and out of play, does runner get second or third?

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Initial throw from an infielder; two bases from position held at time of pitch.  R1 goes to 3rd.

Be sure he tags 1st and 2nd (in that order) before going to 3rd, otherwise he could be put out on appeal.

[Replacematt]

Third. This is the first play by an infielder and the penalty for that is two bases from the time of pitch. The runner still needs to retouch first before touching second or else he is liable to be called out on appeal.

I'm curious as to why you think the award could be second. That would never be the case on a batted or thrown ball.

[Richvee]

@Matt, you'd be amazed at the number of people who think some how this very play is a one base award. I can't tell you how many "discussions" I've had with Daddy coaches, Men's softball players, etc. Never ceases to amaze me how many don't get this.

[Mad Mike]

Many people, some umpires included, harken back to the old "1 + 1" award. It goes like this: The runner was going back towards first on the caught liner, thus, he is awarded first base (the base he was going back to) and then the second part of the equation is the award of second.

Some old habits die hard. Like Richvee said, it is amazing how many people still think this way.

[Jimurray]

30 minutes ago, Richvee said:

@Matt, you'd be amazed at the number of people who think some how this very play is a one base award. I can't tell you how many "discussions" I've had with Daddy coaches, Men's softball players, etc. Never ceases to amaze me how many don't get this.

1 + 1. It's easy, the base he was going to, 1B, and one more, 2B. I can't tell you where 1 + 1 came from but there must have been a bunch of guys in blue shirts wreaking havok before the rules became readily available to the reading public. I don't know what the cost of the rulebook from the "Sporting News"? would have been back when it was the only book available other than perhaps the LL green book but it must have been above a lot of guys budget. To tell the truth, even with the rule access today some of the guys I train today do not read the book and depend on how alert they were when I actually camp gamed the play on the field. Sometimes we still get a fail when they get to do it for real. I have to do a better job of communicating. I think my rant went off topic.

[blue23ll]

Its been a weird year for base awards for me. I had my first of the season this week. Very strange indeed.

[Sut'n Blue]

Looking at the bright side, when a coach says it's one plus one he or she has at least advanced beyond "one base on an overthrow." Though one plus one is not the rule it is usually the outcome so to a certain extent it is a distinction without a difference which will likely keep this rule myth alive for a long, long time.

[mrumpiresir]

10 hours ago, Sut'n Blue said:

Looking at the bright side, when a coach says it's one plus one he or she has at least advanced beyond "one base on an overthrow."

 

Though one plus one is not the rule it is usually the outcome so to a certain extent it is a distinction without a difference which will likely keep this rule myth alive for a long, long time.

When a coach says it's one plus one, he has revealed his lack of rules knowledge.  A coach who says this needs to spend more time with the rule book.

"Though one plus one is not the rule it is usually the outcome"

   I disagree. That is never the outcome when a runner is retreating on the basepath. 

[basejester]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

1 + 1. It's easy, the base he was going to, 1B, and one more, 2B. I can't tell you where 1 + 1 came from but there must have been a bunch of guys in blue shirts wreaking havok before the rules became readily available to the reading public. I don't know what the cost of the rulebook from the "Sporting News"? would have been back when it was the only book available other than perhaps the LL green book but it must have been above a lot of guys budget. To tell the truth, even with the rule access today some of the guys I train today do not read the book and depend on how alert they were when I actually camp gamed the play on the field. Sometimes we still get a fail when they get to do it for real. I have to do a better job of communicating. I think my rant went off topic.

That vast majority of people learn baseball rules by induction.  Very few people who posses rulebooks read them.  It's just not how most people learn.

[JonnyCat]

Sadly, the 1+1 rule does actually exist in USSSA slow pitch softball rules. I play Adult softball and at one game I was questioning the umpire on an overthrow award that I thought should have been two bases putting our runner on thrid. (Of course I asked between innings and did not make a big deal about it.) The umpire ruled (correctly) that in this situation it was 1+1, putting our runner on second base.

Thinking he got the base award incorrect, later that night I looked it up in the 2016 USSSA slow pitch softball rule book, and lo and behold on page 48:

Section 9D: "A base runner returning to a base to retag a base on a fly ball caught and thrown by a fielder to any base. If the ball is thrown by a fielder into the restricted area, the base runner shall be awarded the base he must retouch, plus one base. Since the base runner is required to regain the base he first occupied, he is awarded that base and only one more." (emphasis mine)

BTW. That stupid arse rule cost me a bet. The site director of the complex we play at used to play on our team. After the game that evening we were discussing the rule. I was insistent that there was no such thing as 1+1 in any rule set. After looking it up, I had to sheepishly pay up in a beer! (And a little pride)

Yes it does exist, much to my surprise.

[Replacematt]

Of course, I had to open my mouth. Had a sophomore game on Monday (I dunno, I guess we were short-staffed and I was available.) With R2, F6 gets the grounder, checks the runner, and airmails one somewhere into next week. I award R2 home and BR second. Coach comes out (and even though it's a school, I have a distinct impression of daddyball) and asks, "He got home because it's from the start of the play?" "Yes, the award is from the time of the pitch." "Oh, ok...he was going back to second when he threw the ball. Just checking."

Sigh...