Mr.

[Guest Allen lauro]

One out runner on second in a high school baseball game, batter hits foul pop near home team first base dugout the catcher makes catch in foul territory and thinks its third out and goes into his dugout with ball, runner from second tags up and then the manager tells catcher to come out of his dugout, he throws ball past third base man , runner then scores on the errant throw. Home umpire rules dead ball since catcher was in dugout with ball and the runner on second was only allowed to advance to third account dead ball. Catcher did not fall into dugout, he knowingly went in. Ruling?

[udbrky]

13 minutes ago, Guest Allen lauro said:

One out runner on second in a high school baseball game, batter hits foul pop near home team first base dugout the catcher makes catch in foul territory and thinks its third out and goes into his dugout with ball, runner from second tags up and then the manager tells catcher to come out of his dugout, he throws ball past third base man , runner then scores on the errant throw. Home umpire rules dead ball since catcher was in dugout with ball and the runner on second was only allowed to advance to third account dead ball. Catcher did not fall into dugout, he knowingly went in. Ruling?

One base, ball is dead. 8-3-3-d:

 

Quote

one base if .... the batter hits a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive) which is caught by a fielder, who then leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand...

 

[noumpere]

If the action of making the catch caused the catcher to go into the dugout, then udbrky is correct -- one base on a "catch and carry."  But, if it's a separate action (as it reads to me), then it's just like throwing the ball out of play -- two bases from the time of "throw."

[udbrky]

I was looking for a case play. I thought I've seen that ruled one base before.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

I would rule 2 bases. The action (taking the ball into the dugout) was secondary to the original play. Just like if the catcher, in trying to prevent a wild pitch from going into dead ball territory knocks it there himself. 2 bases from the time of the action.    

[udbrky]

Thanks guys, I hadn't thought of it this way.

[Guest Allen lauro]

So, we feel two bases?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, NovaScotiaBlue said:

I would rule 2 bases. The action (taking the ball into the dugout) was secondary to the original play. Just like if the catcher, in trying to prevent a wild pitch from going into dead ball territory knocks it there himself. 2 bases from the time of the action.    

careful here. In FED, if a wild pitch is heading out of play, and a fielder deflects the ball out of play, it's umpire judgement if the ball would have gone out of play without the deflection (one base). If it's judged the pitch would not have gone out of play without the deflection, then 2 bases, (time of deflection)

I think I'd rule one base. A legal catch and player ends up in DBT. One base. Only the intentional catch and carry FED rule awards two bases. This is a penalty to the defense designed to penalize a fielder who catches a fly ball and sees a runner past his next base, and then steps into DBT  

[ALStripes17]

Momentum doesn't carry the fielder into DBT? Gonna be a 2 base award in my game. No difference in the fielder going into the dugout on his own and throwing the ball into the stands to his many screaming fans.

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[scrounge]

Initially I thought two bases as entering the dugout was deliberately done, but 8-3-3 d pretty clearly puts some strict and specific conditions as @Richvee states. I'm now in the one base camp.

[Richvee]

18 minutes ago, scrounge said:

While that's a reasonable rationale for the rule, going into the dugout - even if innocently thinking there's 3 outs - is still an intentional act. I'm going with two bases.

I understand that logic. I'll stand with one base. I think I have the rule backing for one base in 8-3-3.d

d. one base ......... or with less than two outs, the batter hits a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive) which is caught by a fielder, who then leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, ­bleacher or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line or pre-game determined imaginary boundary line. A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner two bases.....

 

I don't believe this rule should be used for walking into DBT thinking there's 3 outs. FED specifically wants this called 2 bases when it's to catch a runner beyond the next base. 

And I don't think it's the same as a throw. That's covered in 8-3-3.c

[ALStripes17]

I think this is a case where literal reading of the rule is not the intention of the rule. The 'leaving the field of play' caveat within this rule is for a fielder that does so unintentionally most commonly due to momentum. The OP has the fielder intentionally leaving the field. May not be under 'restrictions' as stated in 8-3-3d but it's similar to a thrown ball going out of play.

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[ALStripes17]

I understand that logic. I'll stand with one base. I think I have the rule backing for one base in 8-3-3.d

d. one base ......... or with less than two outs, the batter hits a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive) which is caught by a fielder, who then leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, ­bleacher or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line or pre-game determined imaginary boundary line. A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder deliberately throws or carries the ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner two bases.....

 

I don't believe this rule should be used for walking into DBT thinking there's 3 outs. FED specifically wants this called 2 bases when it's to catch a runner beyond the next base. 

And I don't think it's the same as a throw. That's covered in 8-3-3.c

Scenario for counterexample: Deep ballpark in RF (let's say 350'+) with an R2. F9 catches a fly ball with R2 tagging up and F9 decides to catch the ball, continue running, and cross into the bullpen which is DBT because he knew the R2 could score on the tag up from that distance.... Doesn't fall into the restriction so you award only one base?? Not buying it...

Can even change the scenario to an F8 in deep center and just hopping the CF wall on his own accord...

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[Richvee]

5 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Deep ballpark in RF (let's say 350'+) with an R2. F9 catches a fly ball with R2 tagging up and F9 decides to catch the ball, continue running, and cross into the bullpen which is DBT because he knew the R2 could score on the tag up from that distance....

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One base. I see no provisions for awarding 2 for this in the rules. 

[ALStripes17]

One base. I see no provisions for awarding 2 for this in the rules. 

Umpiring with the rulebook, not by the rulebook. Terrible to let the defense benefit in that sort of situation.

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[Richvee]

1 minute ago, ALStripes17 said:

Umpiring with the rulebook, not by the rulebook. Terrible to let the defense benefit in that sort of situation.

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I think in this sitch I'm by the rules and with the rules. You can also look at it as rewarding the defense for running down a 350 foot fly ball.  

[Out&UglyToo]

Defense is not being rewarded - R2 gets third base. That's an award to the offense. He only advanced home in action subsequent to dead ball, and should therefore go back. F2 should not receive a throwing error, nor should F5 be dinged with an error - that came after dead ball.

Suppose F2 made the catch and stayed in live ball territory, R2 probably did not even advance to third, if he did, he took a risk and got lucky. Awarding R2 third base seems correct, and Richvee shows us that the wording in 8-3-3-d, it is the correct call.