R2 OR R3, BU in 'B' in FED

[kstrunk]

Begging forgiveness as I do not own a FED mechanics manual, I read PBUC and Jim Evans.

I've been going to premium games to observe the umpires so I can learn, but not exactly liking what I'm seeing all the time. Maybe it's a local thing??? FED thing? Not sure, but I'm seeing several BU's moving from C to B with runners on 2nd OR 3rd OR both, when there are 2 outs. The other day I watched one switch from C to B with R2 only when the 2nd out was made. 

I realize the most likely out to be made on the infield is at 1st, but what about an attempted steal, passed ball, etc... isn't he losing a step or two being in B? 

Is this acceptable, and does the FED manual call for it? 

Thanks. 

[ricka56]

IMO. It is a lazy umpire positioning. He wants to be close to the most likely play at 1B, but is too lazy to hustle into that position from C. 

[noumpere]

The umpire who went to B with R2 only was wrong under all mechanic sets.

If there is R2 and R3, or just R3 only, then some mechanics have the umpire in C, some have the umpire in B, some use C with <2 outs and B with 2 outs. 

[maven]

FED says C with runners on, except R1 only or R1&R3. That is: C position unless a steal of 2B is possible, and in that case, B position.

Some other mechanics manuals move BU to B with 2 outs when a steal of 3B is not possible (adding R3, R2&R3, bases loaded). The rationale is that a pickoff at 3B is unlikely, and a play at 1B is likely, so put the BU closer to the likelier play.

As it is a difference of maybe 10 feet, nobody should really be shedding blood over this difference.

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, maven said:

FED says C with runners on, except R1 only or R1&R3. That is: C position unless a steal of 2B is possible, and in that case, B position.

Some other mechanics manuals move BU to B with 2 outs when a steal of 3B is not possible (adding R3, R2&R3, bases loaded). The rationale is that a pickoff at 3B is unlikely, and a play at 1B is likely, so put the BU closer to the likelier play.

As it is a difference of maybe 10 feet, nobody should really be shedding blood over this difference.

What group changes umpire position in 2man mechanics with 2 outs? I'm not aware of any 2 man manual that does this.

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

What group changes umpire position in 2man mechanics with 2 outs? I'm not aware of any 2 man manual that does this.

While I am not aware of any national group (FED, CCA, etc) that does this, it's done in 3-person, so I can see why some might want to do it in 2-person.

 

And, I have seen a BU start in C with R2/R3 (or maybe it was R3 only) and two outs, not move much and have to make a call on a whacker at first.  I think he got it right, but he caught a ration of s***.  Sure, he should have moved on the play, but he didn't -- and it's why some mechanics are adopted for the LCD umpire.

[kstrunk]

21 minutes ago, noumpere said:

the LCD umpire.

???? Sorry, I'm ignorant but I don't want to stay that way. Help me out with 'LCD umpire'. 

[scrounge]

1 minute ago, kstrunk said:

???? Sorry, I'm ignorant but I don't want to stay that way. Help me out with 'LCD umpire'. 

Lowest Common Denominator umpire, trying to make the mechanics monkey-proof so even the lowest-trained smitty can handle it.

[maven]

1 hour ago, kstrunk said:

???? Sorry, I'm ignorant but I don't want to stay that way. Help me out with 'LCD umpire'. 

Liquid Crystal Display. They're robots.

[Pops]

What do you think about moving from C to B with R1 & R2, 2 outs, and a 3-2 count?  No steal of third is possible and runners will be moving on the pitch.

[kstrunk]

20 minutes ago, Pops said:

What do you think about moving from C to B with R1 & R2, 2 outs, and a 3-2 count?  No steal of third is possible and runners will be moving on the pitch.

Good question Pops... but in this case I don't presume to think beyond what is written, especially when those who HAVE written have far more knowledge and experience than I. I'm guessing there's a reason that most mechanics manuals do not call for such a move??? Or... I suppose the writers perhaps didn't want to state the obvious? Or maybe it's just a matter of preference? That said, I'm one to think there's a right way and wrong way on MOST things, but not all... which is why I asked to begin with. So... I'll ask with ya... are such moves, especially if they make sense, acceptable if one desires to advance? 

[maven]

52 minutes ago, Pops said:

What do you think about moving from C to B with R1 & R2, 2 outs, and a 3-2 count?  No steal of third is possible and runners will be moving on the pitch.

Why isn't a steal of 3B possible?

I'm in C in any case with R1&R2.

[noumpere]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

Why isn't a steal of 3B possible?

 

Because it's a 3-2 count with two outs.  Either the ball is put in play, or the batter is out, or the batter reaches first.

 

I still wouldn't move.

[MadMax]

Methinks @Pops posed the incorrect situation... perhaps he meant R2 & R3? Even with 2 outs, in 2-man, I'm staying in C, because while a steal may not be possible, a pickoff attempt to 3B is possible, so too a snap-throw from F2 to either 3B or 2B trying to catch either runner being lacksidasical in retreating. C places me in a better initial point or vantage point for these calls than in B. Just get yer butt in gear and get onto the right side of the infield to make that groundball-and-throw-to-1B call.

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, Pops said:

What do you think about moving from C to B with R1 & R2, 2 outs, and a 3-2 count?  No steal of third is possible and runners will be moving on the pitch.

Why do you think you need to be in B for this ? 

[maven]

19 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Because it's a 3-2 count with two outs.  Either the ball is put in play, or the batter is out, or the batter reaches first.

I still wouldn't move.

Me neither. And a steal IS possible: prior to the pitch, for example.

Most manuals don't move us depending on outs; none that I know of move us depending on the count.

[maineump]

If there are runners on 1B & 2B, you need to be in C - no matter how many outs there are. If there are 2 outs, the PU is staying home, so BU needs to cover the infield. A ground ball to the infield will probably (hopefully) go to the closest base.

I have seen in B with 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs before (pitcher throwing from wind-up), used in NCAA games, but until 2 outs stay in C. By the way the B & C are regular B & C and not the deep B/C areas, like 4-man (and some 3-man sets) would use. Even in 3 man, regular C is used with runners on 1B & 2B - not deep C.

 

[kstrunk]

4 hours ago, maven said:

And a steal IS possible: prior to the pitch, for example.

Just got home from a game and had this very situation tonight! R1, R2, and R2 tried to catch F1 asleep while getting his sign from F2. F1 eventually stepped off and ran him back, but another step would've resulted in a play at 3rd. 

[lawump]

17 hours ago, maineump said:

I have seen in B with 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs before (pitcher throwing from wind-up), used in NCAA games,

 

Then they're not using the CCA manual and they will get dinged accordingly by an evaluator.

[kstrunk]

Is the CCA Manual the 'official mechanics code' of the NCAA? 

[maven]

12 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

Is the CCA Manual the 'official mechanics code' of the NCAA? 

Yes. And not only "official," but official.

[Pops]

We were given this option a couple of years ago by our "experts" in Illinois.  Remember that the OP says it's only with a 3-2 count, 2 outs, and R1 & R2.  I've tried it and have never had a runner go early on F1...he's running on the pitch anyway.  Force outs on a grounder to F5 are easy enough to see from B.  Anything else is going to 1B or 2B.  I kind of like the odds of the play being on the B side of the infield.  

[maineump]

4 hours ago, lawump said:

Then they're not using the CCA manual and they will get dinged accordingly by an evaluator.

Not saying they were right, just that I saw it.

[jpperez14]

On 3/31/2016 at 1:19 PM, Pops said:

What do you think about moving from C to B with R1 & R2, 2 outs, and a 3-2 count?  No steal of third is possible and runners will be moving on the pitch.

If it's ball 4, your going to move back to C anyways? just stay there. If your in C and a play is going to be made at 1st or 2nd, you should be moving to the working area, after you step and read who is fielding and where he is going to go with it, then move where you need to.

[kstrunk]

It's unfortunate to have to state the obvious, but's it's confirmed in many of our games... this is simply a matter of the desire (or lack thereof) to be mobile in order to get the best look possible on EVERY play. I see it regularly when a guy is in 'C' for R3 with 2 out, play at first. He starts in the correct place, and that's where he stays, not a step closer to first to make the call. Is this acceptable? Doesn't even the routine play become 'non-routine' frequently?