Odd scenarios - Stump the Ump

[johnnyg08]

Okay, I'm going to post some plays that I received in an email from a non-umpire asking for my OBR interpretations.  I have answered all of them to the best of my ability, but I want to run them by those of you who choose to participate to see if I missed anything.

Ground rules:  Yep, some of what you will read are indeed third world and even next to impossible scenarios.  Please answer them regardless of how rare it might be.  Also, it's very obvious that the questions are coming from a non-umpire so let's be respectful of that and work through it as though you're talking to a non-umpire about a play that they saw last weekend. If you're making assumptions, state that in your responses.   Let's try to have a little fun with these.  

Use OBR references.

Okay, here we go:

Problem 1:

With one out R2 and R1, B3 hits an over-the-fence home run. As B3 comes to the plate the runners turn to congratulate B3 after they both advance to home plate. R2 touches home plate, R1 misses it.

 

Then, they both wait between home and third to congratulate B3.

 

After B3 has crossed the plate, the defensive team legally and properly appeals that R1 is out for not touching home. The umpire agrees and calls R1 out.

The defensive team then appeals again claiming that since B3 passed a live runner (B), B3 is also out. The umpire does not grant that appeal.

The questions are:

1) Should the umpire have called the B3 out as soon as he passed R1? Had he done so, could R1 still have touched home plate?

2) Should the umpire have awarded double play as the defensive team claimed?

Problem 2

Team A brings only nine players to the game and trails 6-3.

In the top of the ninth B4 is called out on strikes and argues, with the umpire and is ejected from the game. The team rallies scoring four runs and leads with 7-6 with two out.  That brings up the spot held by B4 who has been ejected. The umpire rules the inning is over.

After the first pitch in the bottom of the ninth inning, the manager of Team B comes to the umpire and asked for a forfeit as Team A has only eight players on the field.

The questions are:

1) Is the manager from Team B correct saying the Team A has to forfeit because it has only eight players.

2) If a team needs to put nine players on the field, should the umpire have declared the game forfeit when the Team A finished its at bat?

Problem 3

Bottom of the 9th, two out, the home team trails by one run but has R3 and R2.

B5 grounds a ball to the infield, but the throw to first base is not cleanly handled by the first baseman.  Because of the position of the players, the umpire’s view is blocked and B5 is ruled out. The defensive team thinks the game is over and comes off the field.  The batter and first base coach, also thinking the game is over, go to their dugout.

The third base coach, however, saw the misplay and has keeps waving the runners around and both score.

1) Did the home team win because the runners and batter crossed home plate?

2) Was the game over when the umpire ruled the batter out (even though it was the incorrect call and it is obvious the defense did not control the ball?

3) Did the missed call create a weird situation because it led players to believe the game was over? Should play resume with the B5 at first, the R2, now R3, at third and a tied game?

4) Would the inning be ended with tie score because R3 scored, but B5 walked into the dugout during a live play?  

Problem 4

The visiting team is batting with one out, the bases are loaded and the visitors are down one run in the top of the ninth inning.  With a suicide squeeze on, B5 misses the sign and hits one a into the deepest part of the park.  Everybody is running, but the outfielder catches the ball, turns around and throws to the second baseman who relays to first.  The first baseman misses the throw. R1 tags up, but is thrown out trying to reach second base. In the meantime R3 and R2 have scored neither R3 or R2 returned to their respective bases to retouch.

As it is third out the visitors celebrate taking a 4-3 lead.

The pitcher throws to F4 who is standing on 2B to appeal R2 for failure to retouch.  Upon proper appeal, R2 is ruled out.  

F4 then throws the ball to F5 who is standing on 3B to appeal R3’s failure to retouch.  

R3 is then ruled out.

Now the home team celebrates winning the game.

1) Even though R3 was called out on a double play, do the runs by Runner A and B count?

2) Is the process outlined needed to nullify those two runs (because the runners did not tag)?

3) Had the pitcher gone to third first, would the need to appeal at second still exist?  

4) Does that constitute five outs in an inning?

Problem 5

B9 and the home team is batting with R2, R1 and one out. B5 hits ball to the mid right field, that lands just barely fair.  R2 makes the turn at third and heads for home. R1 stops at third. B5 thinking he has triple slides into third base. R2 meanwhile has decided he might not get home and turns back to go to third.

The ball comes to the third baseman, at which point R2 races to home plate. He crosses the home with no attempt to tag him.

F5 instead tags R1 and B5, who are both standing on third base. Then he rolls the ball to the mound thinking that he completed a double play and the half inning is over.  R2 scored before R1 or B5 were tagged while standing on third base.

R1, when he saw no one pick up the ball races home and claims to have scored the winning run.

Questions are:

1) Was the third baseman right in claiming both R1 and B5 are out because (until R2 touche home plate) entitled to that base first?

2) Is R1 correct in assuming that because R2 was not physically on third base, there were only two people on base and therefore only one runner is ruled out on the tag (that being the trailing runner) no matter who is tagged?

3) Would the runs count because R2 scored before anyone was tagged out and R2 scored because after the tag out there were only two out and play was still live?

 

[calablue]

problem 1:   1) B3 didn't pass R1, R1 was no longer a runner. R1 lost his chance to tag the plate as soon as R2 touched the plate.

                     2) no double play possible because;.... see 1)

problem 2:    1) assuming there are no local league rules allowing finishing the game with less than 9 players, manager is correct.

                     2)  umpire probably should not announce the forfeit until 9 players are not on the field at start of the inning ( it's possible that Team A has 

                        had a player arrive late that could have been used as a sub for the ejected player. 

problem 3:     The only answer I can come up with on this is that the umpires should get together and fix the mistake, place runners where they think they

                        would have been had the call been made correctly and continue play.

problem 4:     Because I have never heard or read of acknowledging a 5th out, I would say that because the 4th out appeal was on R2 not retouching,

                       that would make R2 the 3rd out and if R3 had scored before the appeal, his run would count.

                      Had the first appeal taken place at 3rd base on R3 failing to retouch, then the 4th out acknowledged would have been on R3 and  R3

                       would have been the 3rd out and no runs would score.

problem 5:   F5 is wrong, The base only still belongs to R3 if he returns to it.  R1 is correct in his assumption that only one of the runners will be declared

                    out (the trailing runner) if both tagged while on the base. 

                     R2 and R1 both score because the 3rd out was never made

Edited March 14, 2016 by calablue
misspelled words

[noumpere]

I agree with calablue on 1, 2, 3, and 5

 

4.  Allow all the appeals.  No runs score.  If R3 is appealed first, there's no need to appeal R2 (the out is no linger advantageous).

 

[johnnyg08]

13 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

Problem 5

B9 and the home team is batting with R2, R1 and one out. B5 hits ball to the mid right field, that lands just barely fair.  R2 makes the turn at third and heads for home. R1 stops at third. B5 thinking he has triple slides into third base. R2 meanwhile has decided he might not get home and turns back to go to third.

The ball comes to the third baseman, at which point R2 races to home plate. He crosses the home with no attempt to tag him.

F5 instead tags R1 and B5, who are both standing on third base. Then he rolls the ball to the mound thinking that he completed a double play and the half inning is over.  R2 scored before R1 or B5 were tagged while standing on third base.

R1, when he saw no one pick up the ball races home and claims to have scored the winning run.

Questions are:

1) Was the third baseman right in claiming both R1 and B5 are out because (until R2 touche home plate) entitled to that base first?

2) Is R1 correct in assuming that because R2 was not physically on third base, there were only two people on base and therefore only one runner is ruled out on the tag (that being the trailing runner) no matter who is tagged?

3) Would the runs count because R2 scored before anyone was tagged out and R2 scored because after the tag out there were only two out and play was still live?

 

In this problem, if R3 had not yet reached home plate and the BR and R1 are both standing on 3B and are tagged, do we have two outs and a time play on R3's attempt to score?

[ALStripes17]

In this problem, if R3 had not yet reached home plate and the BR and R1 are both standing on 3B and are tagged, do we have two outs and a time play on R3's attempt to score?

No, R3 still being between 3B and HP does not affect R1 and BR both standing on 3B.

What would really screw this play up is if R3 retreated all the way to 3B, then we have 3 runners on the same base... Smh

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[grayhawk]

15 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

In this problem, if R3 had not yet reached home plate and the BR and R1 are both standing on 3B and are tagged, do we have two outs and a time play on R3's attempt to score?

No.  Even though R2 has not yet touched the plate, R1 cannot be called out while standing on third base.

[grayhawk]

#1:  If R1 never touched or passed the plate (at least a few feet up the line), it's conceivable to call out the BR for passing.  In this case, it sounds like R1 was right at the plate, so R1 is out on appeal, and R2 and the BR score.

#2:  According to Wendelstedt, the game shall be forfeited as soon as the vacant position in the batting order is due up.

#3:  Fix it.  The umpire's call put the defense at a disadvantage.

#4:  Allow the appeal.  No runs score.

#5:  Only B5 is out.  Score R2 and R1.

[ricka56]

13 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Problem 5

B9 and the home team is batting with R2, R1 and one out. B5 hits ball to the mid right field, that lands just barely fair.  R2 makes the turn at third and heads for home. R1 stops at third. B5 thinking he has triple slides into third base. R2 meanwhile has decided he might not get home and turns back to go to third.

The ball comes to the third baseman, at which point R2 races to home plate. He crosses the home with no attempt to tag him.

F5 instead tags R1 and B5, who are both standing on third base. Then he rolls the ball to the mound thinking that he completed a double play and the half inning is over.  R2 scored before R1 or B5 were tagged while standing on third base.

R1, when he saw no one pick up the ball races home and claims to have scored the winning run.

Questions are:

1) Was the third baseman right in claiming both R1 and B5 are out because (until R2 touche home plate) entitled to that base first? no...answered previously

2) Is R1 correct in assuming that because R2 was not physically on third base, there were only two people on base and therefore only one runner is ruled out on the tag (that being the trailing runner) no matter who is tagged? correct

3) Would the runs count because R2 scored before anyone was tagged out and R1 (corrected) scored because after the tag out there were only two out and play was still live? Count both runs...HT wins...umpires exit quickly through HT side

 

 

[johnnyg08]

26 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

No.  Even though R2 has not yet touched the plate, R1 cannot be called out while standing on third base.

That's right.  Geez.  Wow, brain cramp.  

[johnnyg08]

28 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

No, R3 still being between 3B and HP does not affect R1 and BR both standing on 3B.

What would really screw this play up is if R3 retreated all the way to 3B, then we have 3 runners on the same base... Smh

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You are correct.  Thank you.

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, calablue said:

 

problem 4:     Because I have never heard or read of acknowledging a 5th out, I would say that because the 4th out appeal was on R2 not retouching,

                       that would make R2 the 3rd out and if R3 had scored before the appeal, his run would count.

                      Had the first appeal taken place at 3rd base on R3 failing to retouch, then the 4th out acknowledged would have been on R3 and  R3

                       would have been the 3rd out and no runs would score.

Could they do the 5th out appeal and negate the other run as well?  

[maven]

3 hours ago, calablue said:

problem 4:     Because I have never heard or read of acknowledging a 5th out, I would say that because the 4th out appeal was on R2 not retouching,

                       that would make R2 the 3rd out and if R3 had scored before the appeal, his run would count.

                      Had the first appeal taken place at 3rd base on R3 failing to retouch, then the 4th out acknowledged would have been on R3 and  R3

                       would have been the 3rd out and no runs would score.

An apparent 5th out is no different (except numerically) from an apparent 4th out. In reality, what happens is that one of these appeals will supersede the actual 3rd out to become the 3rd out of the inning (4th, 5th, 6th... outs are all merely apparent). We allow such appeals only when advantageous, which is possible only when they would remove run(s) from the board.

As @noumpere points out, if the defense's apparent 4th out were the result of appealing R3, then they would need no other appeals, as that would end the inning with no runners scoring. This is true even though appealing R3's failure to retouch would otherwise be a time play and suggest that R2's run, scored before the third out, should count. This provision appears in 5.09(d)/7.12: "If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score." (FED 8-2-6k is the same.)

[calablue]

8 hours ago, maven said:

An apparent 5th out is no different (except numerically) from an apparent 4th out. In reality, what happens is that one of these appeals will supersede the actual 3rd out to become the 3rd out of the inning (4th, 5th, 6th... outs are all merely apparent). We allow such appeals only when advantageous, which is possible only when they would remove run(s) from the board.

As @noumpere points out, if the defense's apparent 4th out were the result of appealing R3, then they would need no other appeals, as that would end the inning with no runners scoring. This is true even though appealing R3's failure to retouch would otherwise be a time play and suggest that R2's run, scored before the third out, should count. This provision appears in 5.09(d)/7.12: "If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score." (FED 8-2-6k is the same.)

And this was the scenario I figured I would be wrong about.  I follow the logic of allowing all the appeals and sorting them out accordingly. Thanks for straightening me out. 

But Hey, 4 out of 5 isn't bad, right?

[calablue]

11 hours ago, noumpere said:

I agree with calablue on 1, 2, 3, and 5

 

4.  Allow all the appeals.  No runs score.  If R3 is appealed first, there's no need to appeal R2 (the out is no linger advantageous).

 

as I pointed out after Maven's  post, I follow the logic in this. and thanks for straightening me out.