2 Questions

[Guest Coach Stu]

Situation #1 - Runner on second and RH pitcher spins to his right.  He looks at second and his slight step is towards second, but he never disengages with the rubber and never makes a throw.  Our head coach came unglued thinking it was a balk.  His reasoning was that just like throwing to first or third if you don't step off then you have to complete the throw.  I was unsure because I've never seen a balk called in this situation.

Situation #2 - Runner is stealing second and throw comes in to SS covering..  Ball beats runner easily but as SS is going down to apply the tag he trips over second base.  Runner seeing that he was going to be out slid to the outside of the bag towards right-center to try and avoid the tag.  The SS landed into the runner pushing him further away from the bag so he never actually touched the bag.  As the runner had not yet been tagged after the collision he scrambled back to try and touch the bag.  The SS was between him and the bag and tagged him while he was attempting to get to the bag.  The runner did not have a clear path to the bag, but the SS had the ball.  So I was unsure whether this could be construed obstruction or not?

[basejester]

#1 Not a balk.  Feints to second are legal under all codes.

#2 Nothing.  Obstruction by definition is an act without the ball.

[Guest Coach Stu]

#1 Not a balk.  Feints to second are legal under all codes.

#2 Nothing.  Obstruction by definition is an act without the ball.

So as a follow up to #2; Remember in the WS a few years ago between Boston and St. Louis, Allan Craig was almost thrown out at third base.  The ball went into foul ball territory and as Craig got up to go home the third baseman moved and his feet came up and forced Craig to alter his route.  Craig was thrown out at the plate but Jim Joyce had called OBS and the run scored.  My question is what if the third baseman had actually caught the ball and was holding it in his glove when he was on the ground, but the play happened the exact same way where is legs came up and caused Craig to alter his route.  Would there be no OBS simply because he was holding the ball?

[basejester]

So as a follow up to #2; Remember in the WS a few years ago between Boston and St. Louis, Allan Craig was almost thrown out at third base.  The ball went into foul ball territory and as Craig got up to go home the third baseman moved and his feet came up and forced Craig to alter his route.  Craig was thrown out at the plate but Jim Joyce had called OBS and the run scored.  My question is what if the third baseman had actually caught the ball and was holding it in his glove when he was on the ground, but the play happened the exact same way where is legs came up and caused Craig to alter his route.  Would there be no OBS simply because he was holding the ball?

A fielder cannot be guilty of obstruction while possessing the ball.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and
not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.

[ElkOil]

What rule set are we talking about?  Obviously, @basejester is referring to OBR, but how about the OP?  In FED, OBS is defined:

ART. 1 . . . Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play.

[maven]

What rule set are we talking about?  Obviously, @basejester is referring to OBR, but how about the OP?  In FED, OBS is defined:

ART. 1 . . . Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play.

You're trying too hard.

A fielder with the ball cannot be guilty of OBS for physically hindering a runner in FED. The FED definition doesn't mention the ball because its verbal OBS provision is independent of possessing the ball.

See the 8.3.2 case plays.

[basejester]

What rule set are we talking about?  Obviously, @basejester is referring to OBR, but how about the OP?  In FED, OBS is defined:

ART. 1 . . . Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play.

ART. 2 . . . [Fake tag]

ART 3 . . . The fielder without possession of the ball denies access to the base the runner is attempting to achieve.

-----

I think #2 is also not obstruction in Fed.

 

 

 

[BillKen]

In Fed, you can be guilty of OBS and have the ball...example would be 1st baseman dropping to a knee to block access to the bag and picks off R1 who was leading off.

[grayhawk]

In Fed, you can be guilty of OBS and have the ball...example would be 1st baseman dropping to a knee to block access to the bag and picks off R1 who was leading off.

If he has the ball first, he can block as much of the bag as he wants.  What he can't do is drop the knee, block access to the entire bag while the runner is diving back, and THEN receive the ball.

[noumpere]

A fielder cannot be guilty of obstruction while possessing the ball.

... unless there's some particularly egregious act.

 

So, in the play the OP referenced from the WS, if F5 had the ball, but tripped R2 pn purpose (so he could tag him as oposed to havign to throw to home, for example), you could have OBS.

 

That said, I've never seen it nor heard of it being (properly) called.

[ElkOil]

You're trying too hard.

A fielder with the ball cannot be guilty of OBS for physically hindering a runner in FED. The FED definition doesn't mention the ball because its verbal OBS provision is independent of possessing the ball.

See the 8.3.2 case plays.

You're trying too hard.

A fielder with the ball cannot be guilty of OBS for physically hindering a runner in FED. The FED definition doesn't mention the ball because its verbal OBS provision is independent of possessing the ball.

See the 8.3.2 case plays.

ART. 2 . . . [Fake tag]

ART 3 . . . The fielder without possession of the ball denies access to the base the runner is attempting to achieve.

-----

I think #2 is also not obstruction in Fed.

 

 

 

WHY AM I SO BAD AT THIS?!?  

[maven]

 

WHY AM I SO BAD AT THIS?!?  

I don't think you're bad, I think you're figuring out the rules differences. That's not easy, and you have the stones to work it out in public, on this forum, for all to see.

Keep at it: you're helping more than just yourself, I guarantee it.

[DVA7130]

Notice in #1 he has to make a discernable step towards second, otherwise it is a balk.

[catsbackr]

IITBTSB

[DVA7130]

IITBTSB

They might not be throwing to second, they might be fainting to third.

[BillKen]

If he has the ball first, he can block as much of the bag as he wants.  What he can't do is drop the knee, block access to the entire bag while the runner is diving back, and THEN receive the ball.

Thanks...I learned something today.  I thought it was all the same.