Unsportsmanlike conduct?

[FVBump]

Had this happen tonight....

HT, R1 was picked off first to end the inning. Banger of a play.

Top of next inning, R1 on, pitcher throws to 1st at least 10 times consecutively. Not close plays at all. I felt he was showing me up. But was really unsure what to do. I was on the bases and my partner also did not act upon this. Subsequently, both benches started getting pretty ruckus and time was called and HC from both were called by the PU. PU told the coaches to get back to baseball as the teams were starting to yell across the field at each other.

Is there some sort of penalty that could have been enforced? I am not sure I could have done anything. ????

Any input is welcomed.

[Umpire in Chief]

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do in this situation.

[NFUA_44]

As to the original situation, there really isn't anything you can or really should do. Any action by either of you will only feed the fire and get them pointed back in your direction. Now once they started going at each other, I think your PU partner did the right thing by getting the coaches involved and telling them to pipe it down. If they continued in the dugouts I would then consider clearing them out except for the necessary personnel. They are acting like the kids that they probably are, trying to provoke a reaction, don't feed the flames and they will loose interest and get back around to playing the game. Hopefully it was a time limit game and they were only hurting themselves, if not, then you'll have to find ways to speed the game along. :Cool2:

[UmpJM]

Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do in this situation.

Warren,

Come on. You're the umpire! There's always SOMETHING you can do.

JM

[UmpJM]

Had this happen tonight....

HT, R1 was picked off first to end the inning. Banger of a play.

Top of next inning, R1 on, pitcher throws to 1st at least 10 times consecutively. Not close plays at all. I felt he was showing me up. But was really unsure what to do. I was on the bases and my partner also did not act upon this. Subsequently, both benches started getting pretty ruckus and time was called and HC from both were called by the PU. PU told the coaches to get back to baseball as the teams were starting to yell across the field at each other.

Is there some sort of penalty that could have been enforced? I am not sure I could have done anything. ????

Any input is welcomed.

FVBump,

Isn't umpiring fun?!?!?

First a couple of questions for you....

1. Was the F1 by any chance the same player as the R1 who got picked off to end the previous half inning? (Not sure it matters, but it might.)

2. Wasn't it too cold on your field for that kind of BS? It sure was on mine.

3. What was the J HC like? The guy who left at the end of last year was a pretty good guy IMHO.

4. Were the lads from RB kind of "cocky"? Never worked one of their games, but I understand they have a pretty good program.

5. What does your J/R say about this sitch?

On to the heart of the matter....

I can think of a few different approaches, and I'm not sure which I might have tried, but here goes...

A. Tell the kid to knock it off. If he doesn't, dump him.

B. Call time. Call E out on to the field while pulling your lineup card holder out of your pocket as if you're puzzled about something. (ALWAYS carry your lineup card holder, or at least a notebook you can write in, even when you're the BU.) Say, "E, what's going on? You want to tell your pitcher to knock it off, or would you prefer I handle it." A vaguely pissed-off and menacing tone is appropriate here.

C. After about the third "non-pickoff" attempt, call Time and add a ball to the batter's count for "delay of game". 6-2-2c. If there's a question, in your judgement the F1 was not legitimately attempting a play. If the F1 gives you any attitude about it, dump him.

D. After about the third non-pickoff attempt, call Time and warn the pitcher he will be ejected if he persists. 6-2-2a. If there's a question, in your judgment the F1 was not legitimately attempting to retire a runner. If the F1 gives you any attitude about it, dump him.

E. After about the third non-pickoff attempt, call Time and warn E that his team will be subject to forfeit if his F1 persists in tactics "palpably" designed to delay the game. 4-4-1d. (OK, "palpably" is actually an OBR word, not a FED word - but it's one of my favorite "rule words", so I always try to "work it in" when I can. )

F. On the 4th non-pickoff attempt, call a step balk and then dump him when he complains. Now the report on this one is going to be a little tricky, so you might want to get Jimmy to help you with it.

The point is, this "ain't baseball", the kid's being a prick, and he IS showing you up. Don't tolerate it. It can only go "downhill", as it appears happened.

You're the umpire. There's ALWAYS something you can do.

Too bad the "what if" session wasn't this coming Thursday. This would have made for a great and informative discussion.

JM

[yawetag]

JM, the only one I could even come close to agreeing to is calling the balk.

[FVBump]

Had this happen tonight....

HT, R1 was picked off first to end the inning. Banger of a play.

Top of next inning, R1 on, pitcher throws to 1st at least 10 times consecutively. Not close plays at all. I felt he was showing me up. But was really unsure what to do. I was on the bases and my partner also did not act upon this. Subsequently, both benches started getting pretty ruckus and time was called and HC from both were called by the PU. PU told the coaches to get back to baseball as the teams were starting to yell across the field at each other.

Is there some sort of penalty that could have been enforced? I am not sure I could have done anything. ????

Any input is welcomed.

FVBump,

Isn't umpiring fun?!?!?

First a couple of questions for you....

1. Was the F1 by any chance the same player as the R1 who got picked off to end the previous half inning? (Not sure it matters, but it might.)

2. Wasn't it too cold on your field for that kind of BS? It sure was on mine.

3. What was the J HC like? The guy who left at the end of last year was a pretty good guy IMHO.

4. Were the lads from RB kind of "cocky"? Never worked one of their games, but I understand they have a pretty good program.

5. What does your J/R say about this sitch?

On to the heart of the matter....

I can think of a few different approaches, and I'm not sure which I might have tried, but here goes...

A. Tell the kid to knock it off. If he doesn't, dump him.

B. Call time. Call E out on to the field while pulling your lineup card holder out of your pocket as if you're puzzled about something. (ALWAYS carry your lineup card holder, or at least a notebook you can write in, even when you're the BU.) Say, "E, what's going on? You want to tell your pitcher to knock it off, or would you prefer I handle it." A vaguely pissed-off and menacing tone is appropriate here.

C. After about the third "non-pickoff" attempt, call Time and add a ball to the batter's count for "delay of game". 6-2-2c. If there's a question, in your judgement the F1 was not legitimately attempting a play. If the F1 gives you any attitude about it, dump him.

D. After about the third non-pickoff attempt, call Time and warn the pitcher he will be ejected if he persists. 6-2-2a. If there's a question, in your judgment the F1 was not legitimately attempting to retire a runner. If the F1 gives you any attitude about it, dump him.

E. After about the third non-pickoff attempt, call Time and warn E that his team will be subject to forfeit if his F1 persists in tactics "palpably" designed to delay the game. 4-4-1d. (OK, "palpably" is actually an OBR word, not a FED word - but it's one of my favorite "rule words", so I always try to "work it in" when I can. )

F. On the 4th non-pickoff attempt, call a step balk and then dump him when he complains. Now the report on this one is going to be a little tricky, so you might want to get Jimmy to help you with it.

The point is, this "ain't baseball", the kid's being a prick, and he IS showing you up. Don't tolerate it. It can only go "downhill", as it appears happened.

You're the umpire. There's ALWAYS something you can do.

Too bad the "what if" session wasn't this coming Thursday. This would have made for a great and informative discussion.

JM

JM did his research on this one! -HA!

Isn't umpiring fun? 100% without a doubt YES!

F1 was not the same player picked of in the previous inning.

Yes, it was too cold for this BS on the field. And it was only the second game for J.

HC for J - good guy. Even when he came out to ask me what I saw.

RB wasn't too cocky, IMO. Good program. However, their record is now 6-1, so they may get cockier as they progress. They are a good ball team.

I will be looking at the JR tonight and this weekend for this particular sitch. *on a side note, this manual is great.

And yes, I wish we had a "what if" session coming up.

I thought about calling time or saying something, but here was my thought process.

The pitcher was a lefty. He made no attempt to go home, and clearly was stepping to the base. I think a balk would have been hard to explain. On more than a couple of occasions, R1 was diving back to the base, although I knew the whole time that F1 was not going to be throwing home after the second attempt. He wasn't just lobbing the ball over to F3....Ihave to be honest, this one cracked me up, and really took team J out of the mind set of playing ball.

hmmm...

[mstaylor]

Maybe I'm missing some hisory but why did you think the pitcher was trying to show you up? As the BU I would leave it alone. As the PU, when the jockeying started in the dugouts, step back, tell them both to knock it off and tell them to play baseball.

[FVBump]

mstaylor,

the only history was his teammate being called out by me. Other than his warmup pitches, he did not throw to home. After the 3rd "pickoff attempt", based on chatter from the dugout and him smirking, I knew he was going to drag this out....

[grayhawk]

B. Call time. Call E out on to the field while pulling your lineup card holder out of your pocket as if you're puzzled about something. (ALWAYS carry your lineup card holder, or at least a notebook you can write in, even when you're the BU.) Say, "E, what's going on? You want to tell your pitcher to knock it off, or would you prefer I handle it." A vaguely pissed-off and menacing tone is appropriate here.

This would be my preference. You know what's going on. He knows what's going on. Now he knows that you know what's going on and are ready to put a stop to it. Any coach worth a crap would take the hint and end it right there.

[tiger49]

B. Call time. Call E out on to the field while pulling your lineup card holder out of your pocket as if you're puzzled about something. (ALWAYS carry your lineup card holder, or at least a notebook you can write in, even when you're the BU.) Say, "E, what's going on? You want to tell your pitcher to knock it off, or would you prefer I handle it." A vaguely pissed-off and menacing tone is appropriate here.

This would be my preference. You know what's going on. He knows what's going on. Now he knows that you know what's going on and are ready to put a stop to it. Any coach worth a crap would take the hint and end it right there.

No Good can come of doing this as BU. First you would have nothing needed to be clarified to bring out a notepad. Secondly if the convo goes south it looks like you baited him. PU would have the advantage in pulling out the lineup cards. I don't like doing this at all after they visibly didn't like a pick-off call.

Not much BU can do here except "look harder for a balk"

As PU first thing I would do is send F2 with the message that they made their point and to get playing, if they don't I will look very hard for any possible balk, and of course find one.

[grayhawk]

B. Call time. Call E out on to the field while pulling your lineup card holder out of your pocket as if you're puzzled about something. (ALWAYS carry your lineup card holder, or at least a notebook you can write in, even when you're the BU.) Say, "E, what's going on? You want to tell your pitcher to knock it off, or would you prefer I handle it." A vaguely pissed-off and menacing tone is appropriate here.

This would be my preference. You know what's going on. He knows what's going on. Now he knows that you know what's going on and are ready to put a stop to it. Any coach worth a crap would take the hint and end it right there.

No Good can come of doing this as BU. First you would have nothing needed to be clarified to bring out a notepad. Secondly if the convo goes south it looks like you baited him. PU would have the advantage in pulling out the lineup cards. I don't like doing this at all after they visibly didn't like a pick-off call.

Not much BU can do here except "look harder for a balk"

As PU first thing I would do is send F2 with the message that they made their point and to get playing, if they don't I will look very hard for any possible balk, and of course find one.

I was thinking from the PU's point of view. All my games are solo. I still like it better than calling a phantom balk. Talk about escalating things.

[Rich Ives]

mstaylor,

the only history was his teammate being called out by me. Other than his warmup pitches, he did not throw to home. After the 3rd "pickoff attempt", based on chatter from the dugout and him smirking, I knew he was going to drag this out....

If he didn't throw home how did you get a runner on first?

[Rich Ives]

SO - one of the umpires goes to the DC and says "knock it off and pitch or you're outa here". So you've just told R1 there won't be a throw over and he'll be off with the first hint of motion from F1. You just gave him second base. BRILLIANT!

Want to think this through again?

[FVBump]

mstaylor,

the only history was his teammate being called out by me. Other than his warmup pitches, he did not throw to home. After the 3rd "pickoff attempt", based on chatter from the dugout and him smirking, I knew he was going to drag this out....

If he didn't throw home how did you get a runner on first?

Guess I left out he walked the first batter of the inning. Sorry for any confusion. R1 did not just appear out of the blue. :)

[grayhawk]

SO - one of the umpires goes to the DC and says "knock it off and pitch or you're outa here". So you've just told R1 there won't be a throw over and he'll be off with the first hint of motion from F1. You just gave him second base. BRILLIANT!

Want to think this through again?

Was this in response to my post? If so, it's a huge misrepresentation.

[Dragon29]

I'm in the camp that would do nothing as BU (except be absolutely certain I don't miss even the smallest balk)

If you're going to make any kind of argument re:delaying the game you had better be 100% certain, and it'd be best if there was some way you could demonstrate that when questioned later ('cause you will be questioned later) and it would be better still if it came from the PU.

Let him keep throwing - if he doesn't end up throwing the ball away, he'll stop. I mean, how long do you think his manager will let him go on with that crap anyway?

[UmpJM]

grayhawk,

...

Was this in response to my post?

I thought Rich was responding to MY post, but I can't be sure.

If so, it's a huge misrepresentation.

Well, OF COURSE it is! That's what coaches DO!

Now, knowing Rich to be a person of high moral integrity and outstanding character , I'm sure he would NEVER engage in so reprehensibly misrepresenting what an umpire said during a game he was actually coaching.

Of course, he's also a coach, and as anyone who has reviewed the medical literature knows, while some coaches "manage" their CD/LPS condition better than others, NONE of them is immune. So, on the other hand, perhaps he would.

(Reference: http://baseball.offi.../x/article/4413)

My guess is that Rich was simply offering the pedagogical point that in "sensitive" situations like this, it is advisable for the umpire to "tread carefully" and be quite mindful of what he says and how he conducts himself in managing situations such as this.

Which is a good point.

Now, in case any of you haven't surmised this already, I actually KNOW FVBump, and find him to be a conscientious umpire who is commendably diligent in doing whatever he can to improve his knowledge and skills as an umpire. I would guess any of you would be happy to work with him (as would I), and Rich would be delighted to have him officiate one of his games. (Of course, I've never actually seem him work a game, and his strike zone might totally suck, so maybe NOT! )

It may not have come across in my initial response, but I may have been fuc... excuse me, "messin'" with him a little.

Nonetheless, I did have a serious point, and I may have been attempting to generate a little "discussion" beyond the "..woe is me, there's nothing to be done..." responses to his post that preceded mine.

Namely, when this sort of "crap" finds you on the field, and you are CERTAIN that it is, in fact "crap" (and you do want to be really, really CERTAIN), it is your JOB to address it (see OBR 9.01(a), particularly the final clause of the second sentence) and there is always "SOMETHING" you can do about it. You are the umpire, and, as such, you are the ultimate authority on the field. (Well, technically the UIC is the "final" authority, but you get my point.) Now, you don't want to be a "redass" or an "OOO" about it, but when one team starts doing something that is "not baseball", if you DON'T address it, the game can quickly turn into a "goat rodeo". I don't know about you, but if I want to see a goat rodeo, I'll go see a goat rodeo rather than accept a contract to officiate a baseball game.

In the real world, I would not actually "do" some of the things suggested in the options I offered for consideration - I was just kinda' "thinking outside the box" and "putting everything on the table" as is so frequently and tritely said these days.

And, had the events FVBump described transpired in a HS game I was working, I am certain I would have addressed it before the pitcher had made 10 consecutive "non-pickoff" throws to 1B without delivering a pitch to the batter. In MY judgment, which is the only judgment that matters, that IS intentionally delaying the game (which is illegal), it is "unsportsmanlike" - which is expressly prohibited under FED rules, and likely an attempt to "show up" the umpire - which is certainly "frowned upon", and not something I'm particularly tolerant of in my games. Of course, I wasn't there, so I can't be CERTAIN.

And always remember, while you are the final authority on the field, if you're just acting like a dick, the Coach certainly has other venues of recourse OFF the field (your association, the AD, the conference, your state's association), so you always want to conduct yourself in an irreproachable manner.

Not having been there, I honestly don't know what I actually would have done. Having "slept on it", I suspect I might have:...

G. After the 3rd or 4th "non-pickoff", call TIME!, approach the F1 and ask to see the ball so you can inspect it. In a voice only you and he can hear (mildly "friendly" tone) say, "Pitcher is there something you would like to tell me? ....OK, how about we get back to playing baseball now. Thank you." Or something like that. As I said, I'd had to have been there to be sure.

So, that's all.

What's that? Why yes, having had my 4th of 5 games over the last week or so cancelled earlier this afternoon , I do have a bit of extra time on my hands. How could you tell?

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Hopefully the game had a time limit. If it did so be it. If it didn't I'm going to somehow interupt the flow.

[UmpJM]

Hopefully the game had a time limit. If it did so be it. If it didn't I'm going to somehow interupt the flow.

The only "time limit" on the game in question was that imposed by Mother Nature - sunset. I believe yesterday, that would have allowed for approximately a 3-hour game.

JM

[Rich Ives]

SO - one of the umpires goes to the DC and says "knock it off and pitch or you're outa here". So you've just told R1 there won't be a throw over and he'll be off with the first hint of motion from F1. You just gave him second base. BRILLIANT!

Want to think this through again?

Was this in response to my post? If so, it's a huge misrepresentation.

Did it show up with a quote, thus a reply, or just as a new post.

[dumbdumb]

OK you guys, its time to help the young guys out.

Let's say the coach or player or both are PO'd at the call and keeps this up. What are you going to do. Let's hear from the guys who say there is nothing you can do, and the guys who went to the school or major clinics over the years.

Let's say the pitcher doesn't stop at 10 throws over to first. He just keeps going(and no the coach doesn't put a stop to it, either because he doesn't want to show up his pitcher or he thinks the pitcher is right in doing it, or he ordered the pitcher to do it). And let's say you now finally "know" it is in retaliation for what is perceived as your bad call at first base. What are you going to do and what rule are you going to use to back it up.

This could happen to one of the young guys, and you need to give them some help on how to put a stop to this.

OK, what if this is not in retaliation to your call, but the teams hate each other, and the coach orders his pitcher to throw over to first a million times just for spite on the other team. What are you going to do and what rule are you going to use? Eventually the other team is going to start complaining. Come on the kids need help for some of the coaches out there that will do this type of stuff to show the umpire up if nothing else. And all you coaches out there, weigh in when the veterans start mentioning the rule they are going to use against you if you try and start this stuff. Give your rebuttal. (Your not working any more of my games).

[yawetag]

I'm going to allow it. There's nothing against attempting a pick-off, and any interjection by me will be wrong.

If you really feel it's showing you up or some sort of retaliation to you or the other team, let the appropriate people know after the game.

[FVB9]

Conan, if you're the BU, just clap your hands a couple of times and say to the Pitcher "Here we go" or "Let's go" and he'll get the hint. Very subtle, keeps the game moving, not overbearing. I wouldn't do anything other than that. And don't listen to Johnny, he's been drinking all week!

[mstaylor]

The PU has more of a chance to fix than the BU. Most anything the BU does is going to look like he is the aggresser. If the dugouts get into it then the PU does what I said in the post above. If it is obvious that the F1 is spiting the BU, the PU can tell his catcher to go tell the pitcher you get it and play baseball. Other than that there isn't much to do. At a higher level where the guys get it, the PU can tell the catcher if the pitcher wants anymore strikes, he better start pitching. This shouldn't be done at the lower levels, the kids and likely not the coaches would understand.