Bat over plate during bunt

[Guest Welch621]

Okay, during a game tonight I had this situation happen. Cal Ripkin Minors, 2-1 count. Batter sets up to bunt, the ball is thrown at the ankles and ends up in the dirt. The player never withdrew the bat and it stayed over the plate the whole time. I called the pitch a ball. OHC calls time and comes out yelling that it should have been a strike since the bat was over the plate. I inform the coach that the mere act of having the bat over the plate during a bunt does not constitute a strike and that the player would have to offer at the pitch in order for it to be called a strike. Coach starts walking away mad and his assistant yells that should of been a strike. I give the assistant "the look". 

 

That at batter ends up being walked and subsequently scores. Between innings OHC comes out to "inform" me what the rules are. I state that we have already discussed this and we will have no further discussion. He then tells me "okay, but that run is on you."

 

Thinking back I shouldn't have let him get away with that last statement but my question is did I have my call correct? Talking with some other umpires after the game said that I did but I just want some more feedback. 

 

Thanks. 

[Guest Welch621]

Sorry that should say the DHC was the one arguing since it was his team pitching. 

[Tksjewelry]

You got the call correct.

[Dbellyflop]

Depends on the rule set. Little League Baseball rules specifically say that the mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempted bunt. (LL softball is the opposite!!!!!) I don't know what Cal Ripkin rules say. OBR? Doesn't have the note in the bunt definition.......

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Dbellyflop

[UMP45]

As far as baseball rules go, no matter what rule set the batter has to make an attempt or try to bunt the pitch.

 

[Cav]

OHC calls time and comes out yelling...I inform the coach that...

​...this is a warning.

[noumpere]

​...this is a warning.

​Yep, and this:

"okay, but that run is on you."

 

​Is an ejection

[Rich Ives]

Depends on the rule set. Little League Baseball rules specifically say that the mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempted bunt. (LL softball is the opposite!!!!!) I don't know what Cal Ripkin rules say. OBR? Doesn't have the note in the bunt definition.......

 

​OBR:

A BUNT is a batted ball not swung at, but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly within the infield.

Didn't do that.

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which—
(a) Is struck at by the batter and is missed;

Didn't do that

(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike
zone;

Didn't do that.

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at
by the batter.

Meets that rule though.

Must be a "ball".

Ripken uses OBR based rules.

This help?

[ElkOil]

Congratulations are in order.  One, you called it correctly.  Two, you're the first umpire in the history of the game to be credited with a run. How did they score that (he asked facetiously)?

[Rich Ives]

  Two, you're the first umpire in the history of the game to be credited with a run. How did they score that (he asked facetiously)?

​Not even close to first 

[Majordave]

I think the holding the bat out over the plate and not pulling back is one of those baseball rules myths that keeps being propagated by cretins who can't read the rule book or are too lazy to read it or too stupid to have comprehended what they read. I had it in a NCAA D2 weekend series recently. Wasn't a big deal but I had to tell a coach that holding the bat out without moving it at the pitch was not offering at the pitch. 

Unless, of course, the coaches are trying to pull a fast one on an unenlightened umpire? (Naw, a coach would never do that and a college level umpire would know that rule, right?)

[Blueump]

It is also a FED softball rule

[woodiemiller]

Like the warden said to Paul Crew in THE LONGEST YARD, "To get along, you go along."

Edited May 27, 2015 by woodiemiller

[MPLSMatt]

Just curious, at a low level, how many of you would've dumped after "that one's on you" if it's said while walking away?   I think I'm keeping him on the shortest of short leash but I can certainly understand tossing him.  Also, not sure that my association would have my back if I tossed in that situation.  

[Umpirechick1]

Yes, you got the call right, and kudos to you for having the guts to call it.  SO many umpires will go with what's expected, the path of least resistance, etc.  But since someone has already quoted the rule for you, you know you've got it right.  And yes, it probably falls under the "top 40 baseball myths" but to me, the batter is setting up and the pitcher still has to make a good pitch to him in order for it to be a strike (if he doesn't offer at it).  

Since it is something that is so often called the other way, I would sternly tell him "Coach, that's a warning for your assistant coach."  (Since we don't care what they think)  On the comment from the head coach "Coach, that's a warning for you."  and if anything else was said... eject... whoever is guilty.  And if you can't figure out who it was, just pick one.

[ElkOil]

Just curious, at a low level, how many of you would've dumped after "that one's on you" if it's said while walking away?   I think I'm keeping him on the shortest of short leash but I can certainly understand tossing him.  Also, not sure that my association would have my back if I tossed in that situation.  

​I'd have to be in the moment, but I'm inclined to say I wouldn't.  That doesn't meet any of the Three Ps for me -- prolonged, profane or personal.  You can say it's personal, and I wouldn't disagree with anyone who tosses him, but I'd probably ignore it.

[KenBAZ]

I think the holding the bat out over the plate and not pulling back is one of those baseball rules myths that keeps being propagated by cretins who can't read the rule book or are too lazy to read it or too stupid to have comprehended what they read. I had it in a NCAA D2 weekend series recently. Wasn't a big deal but I had to tell a coach that holding the bat out without moving it at the pitch was not offering at the pitch. Unless, of course, the coaches are trying to pull a fast one on an unenlightened umpire? (Naw, a coach would never do that and a college level umpire would know that rule, right?) Had a former ML player arguing with me at a 13U game. Be squares and gets hit in the shins by a FB in the middle of the batters box. DHC wanted me to call a strike and keep the hitter in the box because he didn't pull the bat back. I couldn't understand what he was complaining about because I didn't get that he thought the batter was required to pull back rather then offer.

[bluejerred]

Coach starts walking away mad and his assistant yells that should of been a strike. I give the assistant "the look". 

 

Well done on the look!  Feel free to dump the Ass. if he directed his argument of balls and strikes at you.  HC already made his point, the Ass. has no business reiterating anything to you.  Especially if he has been a pain earlier in the game.  

[RingEmUp]

Bravo on the call.  My counter to this is that you are asking for trouble when you make this call, especially at this age group.  I don't think you can EJ on a call like this because most folks assume its a strike even though he technically never offered. 

[TheRockawayKid]

I've heard some umpires say "yes he offered" or "no he didn't" in addition to the ball/strike call, essentially treating it like a check swing. Could work. 

[Majordave]

I've heard some umpires say "yes he offered" or "no he didn't" in addition to the ball/strike call, essentially treating it like a check swing. Could work. 

Yes!  ^^^^^ this^^^^^^

That's the ticket to less BS in my training and experience. The more direct, confident and verbal on odd situations or close calls an umpire can be the better off everybody is.  Can't diffuse every situation but it prevents most. 

My .02.......YMMV

[TheRockawayKid]

Yes!  ^^^^^ this^^^^^^

That's the ticket to less BS in my training and experience. The more direct, confident and verbal on odd situations or close calls an umpire can be the better off everybody is.  Can't diffuse every situation but it prevents most. 

My .02.......YMMV

​Piling on (and probably going off topic) -- I've learned that it's better to describe verbally and call it with your hands. e.g. "yes he got him" on a close swipe tag or "yes he held the bag" on a possible pulled foot. On a missed tag I'll give the safe but say "no tag," and if a runner got in under the tag I'll say "he got in there." 

 

For the most part it's allowed me to be ahead of the coaches, who most likely want an explanation. 

[noumpere]

​Piling on (and probably going off topic) -- I've learned that it's better to describe verbally and call it with your hands. e.g. "yes he got him" on a close swipe tag or "yes he held the bag" on a possible pulled foot. On a missed tag I'll give the safe but say "no tag," and if a runner got in under the tag I'll say "he got in there." 

 

For the most part it's allowed me to be ahead of the coaches, who most likely want an explanation. 

​I think that some of that (especially the last) is too much, and the others are too wordy.

 

On the first, point at the tag, or indicate on your body where the tag was and say "tag".  Them follow up with the hammer for the out.  On the second, point at the bag, maybe a two word "held it" or "stayed on" or something.  Lots of people with whom you are communicating won't be able to hear.

[Majordave]

Most of us, me included, talk way too much on the field.  Some not enough.  

The below listings are my suggestions (based upon my experiences and my training at 8 different umpire training clinics at the high school and college level) for what must be said to cover the subject and not get into trouble yet give the coaches and players what they need to play on.  (This may not be a complete listing,  just a suggestion for new guys.)  Feel free to supplement you experienced guys and ask more questions newer guys- and gals)

In addition to "play, ball, strike, safe, out, foul, time, that's a balk, that's interference, that's obstruction"  the following are about all that needs to be said as an umpire when communicating calls to game participants as players and coaches are concerned:

"on the tag" (Out signal)

"off the bag" (safe signal)

"no tag" (safe signal)

"yes, he went"-on a check swing (strike signal/out signal)

"No, he did not go"- on a check swing (no signal required for PU.  Safe for BU=ONLY if asked by PU or pre-gamed when to give without signal)

"no, he did not offer"- on a bunt attempt (no signal)

"yes, he offered"- on a bunt attempt (strike signal/out signal)

 

Anything else is pretty much extraneous verbiage and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

If a coach questions your call the less said the better.  "I had him beating the throw, off the bag, throw beating the runner, tag before the touch of bag, trapping the ball, catching the ball, out of the basepath, not stopping, not stepping to the base, stepping on the plate, illegal slide..........etc."  (Whatever you had.  NOT a rules discussion or clinic and NEVER a demonstration by you or the coach of what occurred on the play.  That is AUTOMATICALLY an ejection for the coach in my book and a ridiculous display of your lack of game management skills if you do it or allow it.)

 

Since I mentioned the plate meeting, this is my plate meeting below.

The plate meeting should only include: (unless there are extenuating circumstances)

"I'm your name ."/Partner introduces him/her self)

"DH, name/number  for position/name in the number slot/hole/batting position?"(if using a DH)

"Straight nine? (If batting straight nine)

"Coach, please take us around," (ground rules explanation and questions-as briefly as possible)

"Are all players legal and properly equipped?" (FED)

"Are all players award of sportsmanship rules requirements?" (FED)

"Will there be an anthem?" (if applicable)

"Good luck and have fun" (handshakes)

 

Jokes, discussions about strike zones, balks, good looking hotties in the stands, last week's games, conference tournaments, previous game's calls, questions about interpretations, etc. should be deflected to another time and place.  NOT the plate meeting.

 

My .02.................. YMMV.

 

 

[TheRockawayKid]

Most of us, me included, talk way too much on the field.  Some not enough.  

The below listings are my suggestions (based upon my experiences and my training at 8 different umpire training clinics at the high school and college level) for what must be said to cover the subject and not get into trouble yet give the coaches and players what they need to play on.  (This may not be a complete listing,  just a suggestion for new guys.)  Feel free to supplement you experienced guys and ask more questions newer guys- and gals)

In addition to "play, ball, strike, safe, out, foul, time, that's a balk, that's interference, that's obstruction"  the following are about all that needs to be said as an umpire when communicating calls to game participants as players and coaches are concerned:

"on the tag" (Out signal)

"off the bag" (safe signal)

"no tag" (safe signal)

"yes, he went"-on a check swing (strike signal/out signal)

"No, he did not go"- on a check swing (no signal required for PU.  Safe for BU=ONLY if asked by PU or pre-gamed when to give without signal)

"no, he did not offer"- on a bunt attempt (no signal)

"yes, he offered"- on a bunt attempt (strike signal/out signal)

 

Anything else is pretty much extraneous verbiage and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

If a coach questions your call the less said the better.  "I had him beating the throw, off the bag, throw beating the runner, tag before the touch of bag, trapping the ball, catching the ball, out of the basepath, not stopping, not stepping to the base, stepping on the plate, illegal slide..........etc."  (Whatever you had.  NOT a rules discussion or clinic and NEVER a demonstration by you or the coach of what occurred on the play.  That is AUTOMATICALLY an ejection for the coach in my book and a ridiculous display of your lack of game management skills if you do it or allow it.)

 

Since I mentioned the plate meeting, this is my plate meeting below.

The plate meeting should only include: (unless there are extenuating circumstances)

"I'm your name ."/Partner introduces him/her self)

"DH, name/number  for position/name in the number slot/hole/batting position?"(if using a DH)

"Straight nine? (If batting straight nine)

"Coach, please take us around," (ground rules explanation and questions-as briefly as possible)

"Are all players legal and properly equipped?" (FED)

"Are all players award of sportsmanship rules requirements?" (FED)

"Will there be an anthem?" (if applicable)

"Good luck and have fun" (handshakes)

 

Jokes, discussions about strike zones, balks, good looking hotties in the stands, last week's games, conference tournaments, previous game's calls, questions about interpretations, etc. should be deflected to another time and place.  NOT the plate meeting.

 

My .02.................. YMMV.

 

 

​Seemingly unrelated question: Did you edit this a few hours ago? On the front page it looks like you were the last one to make a post, but apparently this one was the second post. Does the new board treat edits like new posts? 

[noumpere]

​Seemingly unrelated question: Did you edit this a few hours ago? On the front page it looks like you were the last one to make a post, but apparently this one was the second post. Does the new board treat edits like new posts?

​It defaults to sort by "rating" (the left column).

 

Very hard to read, I agree.

Edited June 1, 2015 by noumpere