force or time?

[Guest David]

Ok... another one of these force 3rd out questions:

Runners on 1st and 3rd, one out.

Deep fly ball to RF.

Runner on 3b tags up and scores.

Runner on 1b strays too far and is doubled up for the 3rd out.

Does the run count?

[maven]

A retouch appeal by definition can never be a force play.

If a runner must retouch (tag up), then the batter's fly ball has been caught for an out.

If the batter is out, he cannot force other runners to advance, and thus there can be no force plays anywhere.

If it's not a force play (or the BR put out before 1B), it's a time play.

The myth that a retouch appeal is a force play stems from the fact that in both kinds of play the base rather than the runner may be tagged. But as you can see, that fact does not entail that a retouch appeal is a force play.

[Replacematt]

This is not a force. Score the run.

[Guest]

Making sure I was clear... runner on 1b did not tag up but ran on contact assuming the fly ball would drop.  Fly ball was caught for the 2nd out, and RF made the throw to 1b to double up the runner for the 3rd out.
If the runner on 3b tags up and crosses the plate before the 3rd out, the run counts?

[maineump]

yes - no force - it is a time play

[CricketChapman]

Read the last Approved Ruling under OBR 4.09 - it is identical to this play.

[ArkBlue]

When a fly ball is caught all subsequent outs are time plays.  There can be no force outs when a fly ball is caught.

[Jimurray]

For sure it counts.  A tag up is a force play for the fielder not having to tag but it's still a time play for the offense 

Please don't call it a force for the fielder. What it actually is is an appeal. The fielder during live action is throwing to the base left early to appeal the lack of tag up. The umpire rules safe or out depending on whether the runner got back to the bag before the throw. No verbal appeal is required because the reason for the throw is obvious.

[noumpere]

For sure it counts.  A tag up is a force play for the fielder not having to tag but it's still a time play for the offense 

​Not true.  And if you're an umpire, and you want to improve, you'll stop saying things like that.

 

"Touching the base to get an out" and "force play" are NOT synonyms.  You can have either one without the other.

[Replacematt]

For sure it counts.  A tag up is a force play for the fielder not having to tag but it's still a time play for the offense 

​No. It's not a force play.

[Larry in TN]

For sure it counts.  A tag up is a force play for the fielder not having to tag but it's still a time play for the offense 

​Rule 2.00:

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

[ssaumpire]

Making sure I was clear... runner on 1b did not tag up but ran on contact assuming the fly ball would drop.  Fly ball was caught for the 2nd out, and RF made the throw to 1b to double up the runner for the 3rd out.
If the runner on 3b tags up and crosses the plate before the 3rd out, the run counts?

For sure it counts.  A tag up is a force play for the fielder not having to tag but it's still a time play for the offense