Association Legal Question

[AmackNH]

Just a quick question...the issue of background checks has come up with a few of my associations customers.  We have never done them ourselves and have not previously had a league request them.  As all of us are independent contractors it wasnt something we had previously considered.  Any thoughts on this?  Would our association be able to be held liable for something happening and we hadnt done checks?  Would the liability belong to the leagues alone?  Do we have an obligation to check our "contractors"?

[maven]

The internet is always the best source of answers to questions of legal liability.

 

Consult a lawyer. Even assuming someone has a competent answer to your question, state laws concerning liability vary widely, so that answer might not apply at all to your association.

[AmackNH]

Let me clarify, I am not seeking an airtight legal opinion.  Im aware that an internet forum isnt the place for that...Perhaps poorly articulated.  My real question is what are other associations doing.  But hey, it gave you a chance to show how smart you are by implying someone else is stupid with that clute little emoticon...so your welcome. 

[noumpere]

Let me clarify, I am not seeking an airtight legal opinion.  Im aware that an internet forum isnt the place for that...Perhaps poorly articulated.  My real question is what are other associations doing.  But hey, it gave you a chance to show how smart you are by implying someone else is stupid with that clute little emoticon...so your welcome. 

 

I love a good irony.

[maven]

Let me clarify, I am not seeking an airtight legal opinion.  Im aware that an internet forum isnt the place for that...Perhaps poorly articulated.  My real question is what are other associations doing.  But hey, it gave you a chance to show how smart you are by implying someone else is stupid with that clute little emoticon...so your welcome. 

 

Not saying I'm smart or you're stupid. I don't know you, and your clarified question is more appropriate.

 

But it's still mostly useless: you want to do what makes most legal sense in NH, given your state's liability laws. The fact that FL or MN associations do something won't necessarily provide you with any guide to what's best in NH.

 

And, for what it's worth, I think it's a great question, and one that every association needs to address (and few do). UE just isn't the place for a proper answer.

[AmackNH]

 

Let me clarify, I am not seeking an airtight legal opinion.  Im aware that an internet forum isnt the place for that...Perhaps poorly articulated.  My real question is what are other associations doing.  But hey, it gave you a chance to show how smart you are by implying someone else is stupid with that clute little emoticon...so your welcome. 

 

I love a good irony.

 

Lmao...and an english teacher too.  My profound appologies professor...is my use of the internet language gonna git me sum mo red marks?

[AmackNH]

 

Let me clarify, I am not seeking an airtight legal opinion.  Im aware that an internet forum isnt the place for that...Perhaps poorly articulated.  My real question is what are other associations doing.  But hey, it gave you a chance to show how smart you are by implying someone else is stupid with that clute little emoticon...so your welcome. 

 

Not saying I'm smart or you're stupid. I don't know you, and your clarified question is more appropriate.

 

But it's still mostly useless: you want to do what makes most legal sense in NH, given your state's liability laws. The fact that FL or MN associations do something won't necessarily provide you with any guide to what's best in NH.

 

And, for what it's worth, I think it's a great question, and one that every association needs to address (and few do). UE just isn't the place for a proper answer.

 

JC...would a MOD please delete this thread?  More trouble than its worth.

[johnnyg08]

All FED registered officials in our state are insured...and if the association's officers are also registered, they are also covered.

[Recontra]

I used to defend corporations (which I hope your association is--without that legal shield, individuals within that association doing association business can have individual liability). However, now I do God's work, I sue corporations and individual evildoers on behalf of individuals who have been harmed. So let's say one of your umpires assaults a minor (physically, sexually, verbally--doesn't much matter for this question). Let's say it turns out this umpire has a prior history of similar incidences (or a history of propensity for them). Parents come to somebody other than me (I'd never go after an umpire group--but there's many more lawyers who aren't umpires than are).  But let's say for argument's sake it's me.

 

You can claim your umpires are independent contractors all you want, and maybe they are as between you and them for payment and tax purposes. I don't care! Your association tells them where to go, when to go, who to meet with, who to work with, what to do and not do once they're there, how and when to leave, not to smoke or chew, where to put their water bottles, and you (very importantly) send them there and require them to be clothed in your association approved uniform and embroidered hat. Guess what?  I would have no problem convincing a jury that they are your employee, your constructive employee, your actual agent, your authorized agent, or your "apparent" agent. I don't care which. I get one, and then I got you. He has no money or assets, hopefully you and your association do.

 

But I ain't even close to being done. I further talk into my dictation machine, and not only do I claim your association is liable vicariously (which is a fancy legal way of saying you're liable to my client for what your umpire did even though you weren't there), but I'm not going to stop there. I'm going to allege that you and your association are directly liable to my client for your own acts and omissions (things you did or did not do that you should have done or not have done). You negligently entrusted my minor client's welfare to a guy you knew or should have known was dangerous, and didn't see fit to so much as perform a $10 criminal background check.  Take out your checkbook, and I'll tell you how many zeroes you need to write on it. The good news is hopefully you've got a million dollar liability policy protecting you. If you don't, you probably won't be covered by the liability policy of the league that contracts to use your "expert" services in providing trained and qualified umpires.

[renegadewolf]

702

Here in Ontario it is a legal requirement to get a "vulnerable sector" Police Record Check when you work or volunteer with minors.  Most of the associations I work for are considered volunteer organizations (even though we are paid) and cover any charge incurred (usually about 25 bucks).  It makes perfect sense to me to require your umpires, coaches and organizers to get a PRC, do you really want a violent offender being involved ball games for your kids?

[blue23ll]

Geeze dude, I haven't seen that fast a 0 to over reacting in a very long time...chill.

[Recontra]

Geeze dude, I haven't seen that fast a 0 to over reacting in a very long time...chill.

 

Again, we're just talking hypothetically, but if somebody comes to me who has been hurt by an intentional act of a known criminal or somebody with a known propensity for violence (intentional acts that are "ultra vires" --meaning they are by definition outside the contemplated scope of the employee's or contractor's authority--normally are not the responsibility of the employer or the principal), I'm going to be praying there's somebody "solvent" behind them I can get at that has that "it's no big deal--chill" attitude.  AmackNH asked a question. I answered it. It honestly took me only about 5 minutes to answer with my fingertips.  It's a no brainer. Yes you will be liable, and yes you'd better be doing criminal background checks or somebody like me is going to rip you a new financial a$$hole.  Not trying to beat up on you blue23ll, but it is what it is. And if you don't see me coming or even worry about the possibility of me coming, then it's going to be a cake walk for me. The game will be over before it even gets started.

[blue23ll]

       

[Recontra]

Sorry, Blue23ll!!  I mistakenly thought you were reacting to my post, not the OP's reaction to some of the honest advice he asked for and was given by others.  My serious bad. I apologize again (and would again if you asked!).

 

But back to talking hypothetically, lawyers actually always hope the principals hiring the so-called independent contractors haven't taken their potential liability threat seriously, because then they've invariably not taken any documented steps toward risk management, and they end up being sitting ducks. The trial lawyer ends up getting paid a lot for doing very little, because all she or he needs to say is, "Gotcha!!"

[blue23ll]

I once ejected a coach, who happened to be a major general attorney type in the Army. He was very talkative.

[Recontra]

I am, too. That's why I'm an umpire. I'd never survive a game if I were a coach--and couldn't afford the fines.

[blue23ll]

One of my mantras is, "4 words or less". 

[Recontra]

Well, since we appear to be going at it, I once did a 3-hour required sexual boundaries seminar for a group of doctors, because that's what the state licensing agency required after they observed a dramatic increase in complaints against doctors. One veteran doctor in attendance was angry afterwards, because he believed the whole subject could have been covered in 10-15 minutes. A couple of years later, he had a complaint filed against him by a patient. My recollection is he had his license yanked.

If you make a judgment call on the bases that is challenged by a manager, I have no doubt you can effectively deal with the conflict in 4 words or less. If an umpire association and its individual leaders get sued for something one of their member umpires did--they will wish they had read more than 4 words on the subject, because their problem is not going away in 4 words or less, unless those words are, "Okay, we'll pay you."

The OP asked for some free legal advice. I gave some. Accept it or reject it, I really don't care.

[blue23ll]

"I want my lawyer"

[bam]

F@&king lawyers.....

[Recontra]

I'm reminded why I once announced at a family gathering (as probably most lawyers do a few years after graduating) why I would no longer be any of their lawyer, so don't even bother calling me any more. The reason is that a lawyer will spend an hour or more giving a close family member or friend his/her best legal advice, and then about three weeks later that family member or friend will call back and ask, "Now what am I gonna do?" because they are in an even more screwed up mess, because they did not do what their "free kittens, anyone?" lawyer told them to do, and probably did exactly what their free lawyer told them not to do. It gets old.

 

The OP asked what I thought was a very sincere, honest, and legitimate question:  "Why should we really worry about running background checks on our umpires if they're all independent  contractors?"  And the short answer really is:  Because there are Bogeymen out there like me who won't give a rat's a$$ what your "Independent Contractor Agreement" says, because it ain't enforceable as against my client.  End of story.

 

You know, I suppose (and would probably freely admit) that I can be infuriating at times. I quit this website and forum a couple years ago shortly after joining, because it frankly wasn't always a very friendly place. Then I got an invitation by email at the end of last year to come on back.  I did. Kinda thinkin' I need another vacation.

[bam]

I'm reminded why I once announced at a family gathering (as probably most lawyers do a few years after graduating) why I would no longer be any of their lawyer, so don't even bother calling me any more. The reason is that a lawyer will spend an hour or more giving a close family member or friend his/her best legal advice, and then about three weeks later that family member or friend will call back and ask, "Now what am I gonna do?" because they are in an even more screwed up mess, because they did not do what their "free kittens, anyone?" lawyer told them to do, and probably did exactly what their free lawyer told them not to do. It gets old.

 

The OP asked what I thought was a very sincere, honest, and legitimate question:  "Why should we really worry about running background checks on our umpires if they're all independent  contractors?"  And the short answer really is:  Because there are Bogeymen out there like me who won't give a rat's a$$ what your "Independent Contractor Agreement" says, because it ain't enforceable as against my client.  End of story.

 

You know, I suppose (and would probably freely admit) that I can be infuriating at times. I quit this website and forum a couple years ago shortly after joining, because it frankly wasn't always a very friendly place. Then I got an invitation by email at the end of last year to come on back.  I did. Kinda thinkin' I need another vacation.

Feel free to quit again. I love the "not a very friendly place" line. Know what happens when you talk and act like a douchenozzle? People aren't friendly. It's not rocket science.

[blue23ll]

I'm thinking that you might be taking what is said here too personally. Don't assume that it's about you. 

[bam]

I'm thinking that you might be taking what is said here too personally. Don't assume that it's about you.

Wait. What? Right now it IS about him.

[blue23ll]

 

I'm thinking that you might be taking what is said here too personally. Don't assume that it's about you.

Wait. What? Right now it IS about him.

 

Bam, I was referring to him