Association Legal Question

[johnnyg08]

What's wrong w/ honest, legal advice?

[HokieUmp]

 

Geeze dude, I haven't seen that fast a 0 to over reacting in a very long time...chill.

 

Again, we're just talking hypothetically, but if somebody comes to me who has been hurt by an intentional act of a known criminal or somebody with a known propensity for violence (intentional acts that are "ultra vires" --meaning they are by definition outside the contemplated scope of the employee's or contractor's authority--normally are not the responsibility of the employer or the principal), I'm going to be praying there's somebody "solvent" behind them I can get at that has that "it's no big deal--chill" attitude.  AmackNH asked a question. I answered it. It honestly took me only about 5 minutes to answer with my fingertips.  It's a no brainer. Yes you will be liable, and yes you'd better be doing criminal background checks or somebody like me is going to rip you a new financial a$$hole.  Not trying to beat up on you blue23ll, but it is what it is. And if you don't see me coming or even worry about the possibility of me coming, then it's going to be a cake walk for me. The game will be over before it even gets started.

 

 

And soooo..... you call this - what you describe here, and the other post - as somehow doing "God's work?"

 

Then God has truly turned his back on mankind.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

Here in PA we have lots of background checks now, we really have ramped things up in recent years, for obvious reasons. I turned 18 January 1st this year and January 2nd I got an angry call from the head of our league asking where my background check was, everyone here is in CYA(cover your @$$) mode with background checks even our league secratary who never interacts with kids, just handles paperwork has to get a check. Next year we are starting finger printing as well for anyone who hasn't been living here for 3 years.

[Sut'n Blue]

Lord Wellington said something to the effect that the only thing more melancholy than a battle lost was a battle won. In a way, the same can be said about a lawsuit. Even if you ultimately prevail, being sued will be a damned unpleasant experience. If the you-know-what hits the fan and the sharks smell blood in the water, the fact that you only barely had your toe in the water won't prevent the sharks from putting a target on your back.

Chances are pretty good that nearly all of us, or the organizations we are part of, can ignore the things we're told to do for the sake of covering our various a$$e$ without it ever becoming an issue. Unfortunately, at some point some one of us will be the poor schmuck who let something go because we thought it silly, overwhelming, expensive, or unnecessary and will end up having to pay the piper.

Nobody can tell you what amount of risk you should be willing to take - you need to make this decision for yourself (but it would probably be smart to err on the side of caution).

[BaltimoreUmpire]

Lord Wellington said something to the effect that the only thing more melancholy than a battle lost was a battle won. In a way, the same can be said about a lawsuit. Even if you ultimately prevail, being sued will be a damned unpleasant experience. If the you-know-what hits the fan and the sharks smell blood in the water, the fact that you only barely had your toe in the water won't prevent the sharks from putting a target on your back.

Chances are pretty good that nearly all of us, or the organizations we are part of, can ignore the things we're told to do for the sake of covering our various a$$e$ without it ever becoming an issue. Unfortunately, at some point some one of us will be the poor schmuck who let something go because we thought it silly, overwhelming, expensive, or unnecessary and will end up having to pay the piper.

Nobody can tell you what amount of risk you should be willing to take - you need to make this decision for yourself (but it would probably be smart to err on the side of caution).

This is wise advice, we err on the side of caution on the field, why not do it when it comes to administration as well? An association getting background checks is equivalent to wearing a chest protector, mask, etc. You might not get hit but you want to be covered if you do.

[HokieUmp]

Here in PA we have lots of background checks now, we really have ramped things up in recent years, for obvious reasons. I turned 18 January 1st this year and January 2nd I got an angry call from the head of our league asking where my background check was, everyone here is in CYA(cover your @$$) mode with background checks even our league secratary who never interacts with kids, just handles paperwork has to get a check. Next year we are starting finger printing as well for anyone who hasn't been living here for 3 years.

 

Wow.  Fingerprinting?  I just .... I .... there aren't words.

 

I'm sure I'm fighting a losing battle, railing about providing SSNs to the local LLs around here - which is still a terrible idea, BTW - but I'll draw a line on the fingerprinting.  And that's coming from someone who already has fingerprints on file, as a fed. If people are running THAT scared, then we've already lost as a society.

 

When my association announces as a meeting that we required to provide fingerprints to umpire, then I'm done.

 

I'll miss it.

[johnnyg08]

Here in PA we have lots of background checks now, we really have ramped things up in recent years, for obvious reasons. I turned 18 January 1st this year and January 2nd I got an angry call from the head of our league asking where my background check was, everyone here is in CYA(cover your @$$) mode with background checks even our league secratary who never interacts with kids, just handles paperwork has to get a check. Next year we are starting finger printing as well for anyone who hasn't been living here for 3 years.

 

Wow.  Fingerprinting?  I just .... I .... there aren't words.

 

I'm sure I'm fighting a losing battle, railing about providing SSNs to the local LLs around here - which is still a terrible idea, BTW - but I'll draw a line on the fingerprinting.  And that's coming from someone who already has fingerprints on file, as a fed. If people are running THAT scared, then we've already lost as a society.

 

When my association announces as a meeting that we required to provide fingerprints to umpire, then I'm done.

 

I'll miss it.

Couldn't agree more.

[johnnyg08]

The thing about it is that it's a false sense of security especially for something that has far more supervision than other activities involving kids.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

[johnnyg08]

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

Exactly...but how would fingerprinting have prevented Sandusky?

[Rich Ives]

What's wrong w/ honest, legal advice?

 

 

Every case is different. Laws vary from state to state.  There is no one size fits all answer. That's why you need to see your lawyer for your situation.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

Exactly...but how would fingerprinting have prevented Sandusky?It wouldn't have, people are trying to put in place these policies because they want to feel safe, when in reality it wouldn't have helped.

[ZebraStripes]

I'm reminded why I once announced at a family gathering (as probably most lawyers do a few years after graduating) why I would no longer be any of their lawyer, so don't even bother calling me any more. The reason is that a lawyer will spend an hour or more giving a close family member or friend his/her best legal advice, and then about three weeks later that family member or friend will call back and ask, "Now what am I gonna do?" because they are in an even more screwed up mess, because they did not do what their "free kittens, anyone?" lawyer told them to do, and probably did exactly what their free lawyer told them not to do. It gets old.

 

The OP asked what I thought was a very sincere, honest, and legitimate question:  "Why should we really worry about running background checks on our umpires if they're all independent  contractors?"  And the short answer really is:  Because there are Bogeymen out there like me who won't give a rat's a$$ what your "Independent Contractor Agreement" says, because it ain't enforceable as against my client.  End of story.

 

You know, I suppose (and would probably freely admit) that I can be infuriating at times. I quit this website and forum a couple years ago shortly after joining, because it frankly wasn't always a very friendly place. Then I got an invitation by email at the end of last year to come on back.  I did. Kinda thinkin' I need another vacation.

I found what you had to say quite interesting.  I believe Georgia is considering requiring background checks for all GHSA contest officials.  I'm not sure about my rec side associations though.  I have to go through more background checks for work than they will check for calling games so as an individual I'm not concerned.  

[johnnyg08]

 

What's wrong w/ honest, legal advice?

 

 

Every case is different. Laws vary from state to state.  There is no one size fits all answer. That's why you need to see your lawyer for your situation.

 

 

you're completely missing my point.  Advice is just that...advice.  People will do what they wish with it.  

 

An attorney comes on here and gives us his perspective and people tear him to shreds...the OP was asking for advice...just like umpiring advice...do we respond to all members w/ a

 

"There is no one size fits all answer to your mechanics question. That's why you need to see your local interpreter for your situation."  

 

This forum is for conversation.  His posts allowed for conversation.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

What's wrong w/ honest, legal advice?

 

 

Every case is different. Laws vary from state to state.  There is no one size fits all answer. That's why you need to see your lawyer for your situation.

 

 

you're completely missing my point.  Advice is just that...advice.  People will do what they wish with it.  

 

An attorney comes on here and gives us his perspective and people tear him to shreds...the OP was asking for advice...just like umpiring advice...do we respond to all members w/ a

 

"There is no one size fits all answer to your mechanics question. That's why you need to see your local interpreter for your situation."  

 

This forum is for conversation.  His posts allowed for conversation.

 

 

You are completely missing our points. It's not that simple. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. One could be open to a malpractice claim if the advice given was incorrect for a particular situation.

 

You need to find the answer for your situation.

[HokieUmp]

 

 

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

Exactly...but how would fingerprinting have prevented Sandusky? It wouldn't have, people are trying to put in place these policies because they want to feel safe, when in reality it wouldn't have helped.

 

 

Security Theater.

[johnnyg08]

There's not an attorney out there who will say the checks are a bad idea. Not one.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

Exactly...but how would fingerprinting have prevented Sandusky?It wouldn't have, people are trying to put in place these policies because they want to feel safe, when in reality it wouldn't have helped.

Security Theater.? What does that mean?

[HokieUmp]

 

 

 

 

PA is in child saftey overdrive nowadays after the Sandusky events, after the numerous investigations, we have passed alot of child saftey laws and finger printing is one of them, in my town/county its really a situation of you agree with the new rules or you raise questions about yourself. Its sad but thats what its become here, you can't trust anyone any more after Sandusky. My Grandfather knew the guy and had saud himself he'd have never thought twice about letting him take care of kids. People around here all felt that way about it and its led to to a "who else shouldn't we trust" atmosphere. I know how odd all this sounds but its become reality around here, and its made finger printing seem like a nonissue to implement.

Exactly...but how would fingerprinting have prevented Sandusky? It wouldn't have, people are trying to put in place these policies because they want to feel safe, when in reality it wouldn't have helped.

Security Theater. ? What does that mean?

 

 

It's actually defined pretty well by what you wrote - a policy or a procedure that doesn't help, but gives the appearance of Doing Something.  And, it's generally something that's either expensive to implement, or makes some process much more inconvenient, along with not actually providing a benefit.  It is a not A Good Thing.

[HokieUmp]

There's not an attorney out there who will say the checks are a bad idea. Not one.

 

Maybe I'm not reading a <sarcastica> tag, but you say that sentence like it's a good thing...