Eject or Not Eject?

[aiber]

@aiber

You definitely need to "get the player/coach out of you."

If you don't eject for offenses like the ones illustrated here ("that's two blue!" And drawing lines with bats, among others-emotional moments or not) that we all/majority see as no doubt ejections then you are making it difficult for every umpire who works that team or player/coach after you.

You are also making it harder on yourself. Any player or coach above rookie youth league level knows or should know that some things are automatically ejectable acts. If not, they need to learn and its YOUR job to teach them. If they get away with it once they WILL continue to do it and probably get worse in their behavior as well as more frequently display inappropriate behaviors toward you and other umpires.

I understand that lots of ejections are had to be there moments and sometimes it's hard to be quick or think quickly in the heat of the moment. It will come with experience. When? No idea. Working 200 or more games a year with guys more experienced than me helped me get it together.

I'm not saying be quick to eject but some things have to be non-negotiable and essentially automatic ejections. Profanity, Personal and Prolonged are my guides.

I also do not get emotional when I eject. No huge displays of my power. No post ejection arguments. Quick EJ motion with right hand, a word to player and/or coach notifying them are ejected (and suspended if applicable in college games) then walk away and write notes (name or number, inning, offense notes) while partner plays rodeo clown and gets them off the field/out of dugout.

I don't enjoy it but it is part of the game. You have to do this for your umpiring brethren or get out of umpiring and go coach or play. Sorry but it's that simple.

Thanks for the advice. As I progress as an umpire, I look forward to continuing to learn from this forum. Thanks to all.

[Platejob29]

 

It doesn't get much clearer than that. He said YOUR zone sucked. I doesn't matter what he said before or after that as soon as he said your he made it personal

No. Just...no.

 

Matt why is that a no? It's pretty cut and dry. Again I can't say it enough an ejection shouldn't be thought of as a last resort or a fault of an umpire. Ejections are a part of the game and if they were as bad as everyone outside of professional baseball thought they were then it wouldn't be part of the game. It would have been done away with a long time ago. A coach, player or manager ejects themself not the umpire. The umpire only dots the Is and crosses the Ts on the ejection.

[Replacematt]

 

 

It doesn't get much clearer than that. He said YOUR zone sucked. I doesn't matter what he said before or after that as soon as he said your he made it personal

No. Just...no.

 

Matt why is that a no? It's pretty cut and dry. Again I can't say it enough an ejection shouldn't be thought of as a last resort or a fault of an umpire. Ejections are a part of the game and if they were as bad as everyone outside of professional baseball thought they were then it wouldn't be part of the game. It would have been done away with a long time ago. A coach, player or manager ejects themself not the umpire. The umpire only dots the Is and crosses the Ts on the ejection.

 

 

Because it's not personal. 

[Platejob29]

 

 

 

It doesn't get much clearer than that. He said YOUR zone sucked. I doesn't matter what he said before or after that as soon as he said your he made it personal

No. Just...no.

 

Matt why is that a no? It's pretty cut and dry. Again I can't say it enough an ejection shouldn't be thought of as a last resort or a fault of an umpire. Ejections are a part of the game and if they were as bad as everyone outside of professional baseball thought they were then it wouldn't be part of the game. It would have been done away with a long time ago. A coach, player or manager ejects themself not the umpire. The umpire only dots the Is and crosses the Ts on the ejection.

 

 

Because it's not personal. 

 

But that's exactly what it is. It doesn't get much more personal than that. If I had a situatio where a manager said "your zone sucks tonight." and I didn't eject him my supervisors would be all over me. I get that this didn't happen in a professional game or even a college game but that's a text book example of personal at any level. If he said "you suck tonight" would that be personal in your book? I say that because it's the exact same thing. Just because it's about the zone doesn't make it not personal. It's still YOUR zone. 

[Replacematt]

But that's exactly what it is. It doesn't get much more personal than that. If I had a situatio where a manager said "your zone sucks tonight." and I didn't eject him my supervisors would be all over me. I get that this didn't happen in a professional game or even a college game but that's a text book example of personal at any level.

No, it's not. It's arguing balls and strikes. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out from where people are pulling this personal bullSH*#.

Let me throw something out there. College game, DC says to me in the guise of a conversation, "you need to call strikes." Should I have tossed him?

If he said "you suck tonight" would that be personal in your book? I say that because it's the exact same thing. Just because it's about the zone doesn't make it not personal. It's still YOUR zone.

No, it's not the exact same thing. My zone is not me.

[aiber]

I am very surprised that almost everyone is in agreement that a player that draws the line should be automatically ejected....just saying that I have a hard time doing that to a kid that may be emotional for a split second....Then on my report I justify an ejection by writing that I ejected a player because he drew a line in the sand in protest of a strike call? Oh well...

 

It's a very demonstrative way of telling you and the world that you suck, and in the one subject that is almost totally verboten--balls and strikes. It's the baseball equivalent of giving you the finger and highlighting it with a neon arrow. The problem isn't that someone is emotional for a split second--it's that he chooses to show it in an inappropriate manner.

I am going to bring it up during my next association meeting and am looking forward to learning how they feel.

 

Perhaps everyone should. That would give notice of what type of association one has.[/

I asked during my association meeting last night and it was unanimous. EJECTION...

[Platejob29]

 

But that's exactly what it is. It doesn't get much more personal than that. If I had a situatio where a manager said "your zone sucks tonight." and I didn't eject him my supervisors would be all over me. I get that this didn't happen in a professional game or even a college game but that's a text book example of personal at any level.

No, it's not. It's arguing balls and strikes. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out from where people are pulling this personal bullSH*#.

Let me throw something out there. College game, DC says to me in the guise of a conversation, "you need to call strikes." Should I have tossed him?

If he said "you suck tonight" would that be personal in your book? I say that because it's the exact same thing. Just because it's about the zone doesn't make it not personal. It's still YOUR zone.

No, it's not the exact same thing. My zone is not me.

 

"you need to call strikes" isn't the same thing as "your zone sucks". When he tells you "you need to call strikes" he's telling you how to do your job which is a whole different situation. When he says "your zone sucks" he's attacking your zone. And to say that your zone is not you you're contradicting yourself. If it's not your zone it's yours than who's is it?

[JonnyCat]

Platejob29. Serious question, what if he said "The zone sucks tonight"? Would you eject for that, and do you consider that statement personal?

[Replacematt]

And to say that your zone is not you you're contradicting yourself.

What?

If it's not your zone it's yours than who's is it?

I never said it wasn't my zone. My zone is not me. My shoes are not me. My mask is not me. My car is not me.

[Thunderheads]

 

And to say that your zone is not you you're contradicting yourself.

What?

If it's not your zone it's yours than who's is it?

I never said it wasn't my zone. My zone is not me. My shoes are not me. My mask is not me. My car is not me.

 

There's a fine line here, but .........I don't believe I'm going to allow a coach to get away with it.

 

Is it ok for example, .... if he said .... "Matt, you're judgement sucks tonight"  ??

[kylejt]

I had a bad evening behind the plate a number of years ago, and as I was leaving the field an assistant coach said "Kyle, you really sucked tonight". Now, he was right, and if it was between him and myself, I would have heartily agreed. But, it was within earshot of his players and the fans.

 

Ba-bye.

[andydufresne]

Drawing a line used to be an automatic ejection for me. It isn't any more.

 

About a dozen years ago, I started telling the batter, "You can erase that line with your hand and stay in the game, or you can leave it and get ejected. Up to you." Not once has any batter elected to erase the line. When the manager comes out to argue the EJ, I can always honestly say (and always do), "Skip, I gave him an out, but he didn't want it." I can't wait for the time when a batter decides to erase it, telling the whole world he backed down. I suspect I'll be waiting an awfully long time.

[Platejob29]

Platejob29. Serious question, what if he said "The zone sucks tonight"? Would you eject for that, and do you consider that statement personal?

It would depend on the leve but I'm probably getting an ejection on that.

[JonnyCat]

 

Platejob29. Serious question, what if he said "The zone sucks tonight"? Would you eject for that, and do you consider that statement personal?

It would depend on the leve but I'm probably getting an ejection on that.

 

Understood. I agree, it would depend on the level and tone, but I do not consider that statement or "your zone sucks tonight" as personal. Mind you, I'm not telling anyone how to manage their games, and eject as you see fit, but when talking about when things are "personal or not", I think that is where the disagreement lies. When a coach talk about a particular subject, i.e, a call, the zone, positioning, etc, discussing those things are not necessarily a personal attack on you directly. He is talking about something you did, not your character or integrity. Yes, it is you that made the call or have the strike zone, but I think attaching the "personal" aspect of ejection criteria is often misused. When a coach comes out and says something to the effect of "you're Horses%&t", he is not refereing to anything that is related on the field, but rather that is an attack on you directly, with no bearing on any play. We can all agree in these cases it's an auto eject. I think people misunderstand "personal" in some cases. A coach does not have to like a call, and he is free to express his dissatifaction. How he does it will depend on the consequences. But the mere notion of talking about a call that I made does not make it "personal", IMO. Again, not telling anyone how to manage their games, do what works for you.

 

BTW, good discussions on this topic.

[Replacematt]

And to say that your zone is not you you're contradicting yourself.

What?

If it's not your zone it's yours than who's is it?

I never said it wasn't my zone. My zone is not me. My shoes are not me. My mask is not me. My car is not me.

There's a fine line here, but .........I don't believe I'm going to allow a coach to get away with it.

 

Is it ok for example, .... if he said .... "Matt, you're judgement sucks tonight"  ??

I'm not tossing for that in and of itself, if that's what you're asking.

[Replacematt]

Drawing a line used to be an automatic ejection for me. It isn't any more.

 

About a dozen years ago, I started telling the batter, "You can erase that line with your hand and stay in the game, or you can leave it and get ejected. Up to you." Not once has any batter elected to erase the line. When the manager comes out to argue the EJ, I can always honestly say (and always do), "Skip, I gave him an out, but he didn't want it." I can't wait for the time when a batter decides to erase it, telling the whole world he backed down. I suspect I'll be waiting an awfully long time.

"Andy, you are horseSH*#."

"You can apologize and stay in the game, or not and get ejected."

Wow.

[andydufresne]

 

Drawing a line used to be an automatic ejection for me. It isn't any more.

 

About a dozen years ago, I started telling the batter, "You can erase that line with your hand and stay in the game, or you can leave it and get ejected. Up to you." Not once has any batter elected to erase the line. When the manager comes out to argue the EJ, I can always honestly say (and always do), "Skip, I gave him an out, but he didn't want it." I can't wait for the time when a batter decides to erase it, telling the whole world he backed down. I suspect I'll be waiting an awfully long time.

"Andy, you are horseSH*#."

"You can apologize and stay in the game, or not and get ejected."

Wow.

 

 

You must be a wheat farmer to be able to construct a straw man that large. You indicate such a miniscule knowledge of human nature, and you call yourself an umpire?

 

Wow.

 

Any player who takes me up on that offer will be laughed out of his own dugout, and he knows it. I will be dead for a hundred years before a player erases a line he has drawn.

 

Is that automatic enough for you?

 

[Replacematt]

You must be a wheat farmer to be able to construct a straw man that large. You indicate such a miniscule knowledge of human nature, and you call yourself an umpire?

Given that I made a damn good career out of identifying traits of human nature and predicting behavior because of it...

 

Any player who takes me up on that offer will be laughed out of his own dugout, and he knows it. I will be dead for a hundred years before a player erases a line he has drawn.

 

Is that automatic enough for you?

That's what you think.

[andydufresne]

I stand corrected--someday a female softball player will erase a line if given the opportunity. I didn't think of that at first because I umpire only men.

[Replacematt]

I stand corrected--someday a female softball player will erase a line if given the opportunity. I didn't think of that at first because I umpire only men.

You really don't get it, do you?

[Thunderheads]

 

 

 

And to say that your zone is not you you're contradicting yourself.

What?

If it's not your zone it's yours than who's is it?

I never said it wasn't my zone. My zone is not me. My shoes are not me. My mask is not me. My car is not me.

 

There's a fine line here, but .........I don't believe I'm going to allow a coach to get away with it.

 

Is it ok for example, .... if he said .... "Matt, you're judgement sucks tonight"  ??

 

I'm not tossing for that in and of itself, if that's what you're asking.

 

I thought that's what we're discussing     

 

I understand ....but .......where do you draw the line at personal/negative comments?   You said "Your zone sucks tonight" isn't personal and not worthy of an ejection.   I switched it up to "Your judgement sucks tonight" ....now there's no denying that that is personal, but .... in and of itself, that's not good enough for an ejection.  I think that's what we're trying to understand (not just from you, but in a general conversation) .... what constitutes 'personal' [in regards to this OP] and what slides?

[Replacematt]

I understand ....but .......where do you draw the line at personal/negative comments?   You said "Your zone sucks tonight" isn't personal and not worthy of an ejection.   I switched it up to "Your judgement sucks tonight" ....now there's no denying that that is personal,

That's the thing. That's not personal. My judgement sucks, my positioning sucks, my clothes suck...thanks for your opinion. I suck...you're done.

 

Think about it. Every time someone comes out on you because they saw something different, they are saying your judgement sucks. They may not be doing it so succinctly, but that's pretty much the jist of any non-interpretative argument.

[Thunderheads]

 

I understand ....but .......where do you draw the line at personal/negative comments?   You said "Your zone sucks tonight" isn't personal and not worthy of an ejection.   I switched it up to "Your judgement sucks tonight" ....now there's no denying that that is personal,

That's the thing. That's not personal. My judgement sucks, my positioning sucks, my clothes suck...thanks for your opinion. I suck...you're done.

 

Think about it. Every time someone comes out on you because they saw something different, they are saying your judgement sucks. They may not be doing it so succinctly, but that's pretty much the jist of any non-interpretative argument.

 

Fair enough Matt, I appreciate your insight on this, and for not getting irritated with me giving you examples of what's personal, and what's not, LOL.

 

However, .... we're going to have to agree to disagree [which is perfectly fine].....

 

I'm not going to split-hairs here and let a coach get away with comments like that.   Here's where it gets messy (in my mind) .....  you let him say "Jeff, your zone sucks tonight" (no EJ)...... and then 2 innings later he says  ..."Jeff, you still suck tonight" .....BOOM, you toss him, and he'll argue "WAIT A MINUTE, I can say "that", but not "this?" ..... then you've got another issue

[Cav]

The adjective "your" sticks whatever noun it describes to the person being addressed.  The adjective "your" makes the noun (judgment, zone, positioning, hustle, rules knowledge, uniform, shoe shine, looks, weight, haircut, race, color and/or creed) personal.  

 

If "your" were attached to a compliment, would you not feel obliged to thank the speaker? 

 

Likewise, if "your" were attached to a complaint, would you not feel obliged to toss him?

[Replacematt]

The adjective "your" sticks whatever noun it describes to the person being addressed.  The adjective "your" makes the noun (judgment, zone, positioning, hustle, rules knowledge, uniform, shoe shine, looks, weight, haircut, race, color and/or creed) personal.  

 

If "your" were attached to a compliment, would you not feel obliged to thank the speaker? 

 

Likewise, if "your" were attached to a complaint, would you not feel obliged to toss him?

 

No. Are you seriously going to toss a coach who says, "I think you missed that one. Your positioning was horrible?"