hit batter.....again

[gymcoch]

In LL, is there a rule that states that a P needs to be replaced after hitting a certain number of batters?

By the way: umped my 3rd LL game from behind the plate. Got to call my first runners interference, although I goofed and let the play run it's course and then called the runner out rather than calling dead ball.

[Replacematt]

Nope.

[conbo61]

Some leagues may have it as a local rule. Ours did.

[basejester]

A rule like that was proposed but voted down by the 2014 Congress.

 

http://www.littleleague.org/media/llnewsarchive/2014/January-April/2014CongressVotingResults.htm

[elares]

I have run into that situation in LL All Star play.  Offensive team wants F1 removed after he hit his third batter.  OHC was dumbfounded when I declined.

[Richvee]

I have run into that situation in LL All Star play.  Offensive team wants F1 removed after he hit his third batter.  OHC was dumbfounded when I declined.

Plenty LL coaches don't know the difference between real rules and their league's made up rules.....or the "rules" they've made up themselves that no one else knows.  

[Guest SAN UMP]

Depends on the age of the pitcher.  11 and 12's are limited to 85 pitches per game.  So they can hit 85 batters before they have to removed from the game.  I love telling coaches that.

[elares]

Depends on the age of the pitcher.  11 and 12's are limited to 85 pitches per game.  So they can hit 85 batters before they have to removed from the game.  I love telling coaches that.

That's fantastic!  I'm going to remember that.   

 

"What's his league age?  What's his pitch count?  Well coach, looks like he can hit 22 more batters if they want...."  

[Rich Ives]

Depends on the age of the pitcher.  11 and 12's are limited to 85 pitches per game.  So they can hit 85 batters before they have to removed from the game.  I love telling coaches that.

 

 

Game Highlights:

 

Joey Jones was removed from his LL game today trailing 82-0 in the first inning after hitting the first 85 batters. The game was delayed for 23 minutes part way through the inning when the first aid crew ran out of ice for the bruised batters and had to send out for more. A few of the more squeamish players  were subbed for after being hit 5 times but most endured the 9 or10 hits they took. Two team parents were livid about the abuse but most just told their kids to "suck it up and take it like a man."  9 of the 12 kids on the roster turned in their uniforms after the game and announced they were transferring to the track team where they were taking up javelin catching which they deemed safer.

[basejester]

The unintended consequence of this rule is that an even less accurate pitcher would replace the offender. 

 

When the offensive manager wants the pitcher removed, sometimes he's concerned for the safety of his players and sometimes he wants the best pitcher removed for a competitive advantage.

[gymcoch]

So here's a follow-up to the question:is there ever a time that an umpire SHOULD step in and at least talk to the offensive manager about the P hitting his 5th or 6th kid?

[ALStripes17]

So here's a follow-up to the question:is there ever a time that an umpire SHOULD step in and at least talk to the offensive manager about the P hitting his 5th or 6th kid?

No. Only way I get involved as an umpire is if I think it's intentional.

I know coaches make suggestions to us all the time on how to do our jobs, but we don't go to that level until it gets into our jurisdiction.... the rules

[conbo61]

The only way the umpire should get involved is if he has a rule to back him up.

[elares]

 

Depends on the age of the pitcher.  11 and 12's are limited to 85 pitches per game.  So they can hit 85 batters before they have to removed from the game.  I love telling coaches that.

 

 

Game Highlights:

 

Joey Jones was removed from his LL game today trailing 82-0 in the first inning after hitting the first 85 batters. The game was delayed for 23 minutes part way through the inning when the first aid crew ran out of ice for the bruised batters and had to send out for more. A few of the more squeamish players  were subbed for after being hit 5 times but most endured the 9 or10 hits they took. Two team parents were livid about the abuse but most just told their kids to "suck it up and take it like a man."  9 of the 12 kids on the roster turned in their uniforms after the game and announced they were transferring to the track team where they were taking up javelin catching which they deemed safer.

 

 

lol.

 

I hope the defensive coach will consider these possible consequences as he leaves Joey in the game.  I expect the eloquent offensive coach to appeal to the defensive coach to stop the carnage for the good of the league.  This is a good league.  Everyone gets a trophy just for showing up.  Pain and dirt and facing difficult situations should be eliminated by the parents so no child need suffer. 

Maybe even league representatives can have a chat with our determined defensive coach.

 

Neither league officials, nor managers, nor coaches, nor parents should ask me to make up rules to suit them.  That won't happen.

[Sut'n Blue]

I once told a coach I would pull his starting pitcher if he hit another batter. Every umpire I've ever spoken to about this told me I was wrong but I would do it again if the situation were the same (which thankfully is not likely). 

 

It was a Cal Ripken majors game so mostly eleven and twelve year olds. I'd been involved in the league for several years and the pitcher was by far the hardest throwing kid I'd seen in the league. I don't remember him ever putting the ball over the plate as he put it into the batter's box and four or five of the first seven or eight batters were hit with a couple ending up on the ground after being hit hard. (The batters who didn't get hit all had very close calls and darned good reflexes.) Between hit batters and walks the offense was putting runs on the board and the defensive coach didn't seem to care at all (?). It's been a few years but I think after the sixth hit batter I went up to the coach and told him if one more batter got hit I was going to pull the pitcher. I was hoping he would pull the kid on his own after my saying this but no luck. He was pretty ticked off and told me that wasn't the rule (which in general I don't dispute). I told him if I thought the situation was dangerous I could take whatever steps I thought necessary to protect the kids. The inning ended due to the mercy rule without another batter being hit and during the change one of the assistant coaches came up to me and somewhat sheepishly told me the kid wouldn't be back on the mound. I can't say for sure but I'm relatively certain he didn't pitch in that league again despite playing the rest of that season and the next.

 

Where children are involved I won't slavishly adhere to rules when I think there is a strong likelihood of injury and maybe a serious injury at that. We've all seen wild, hard throwing pitchers but this kid was just plain dangerous to the point that I thought it was a question of when, not if, a child was going to get seriously hurt. To a lesser extent there's also a game management consideration as I could hear parents getting pretty heated in the stands and if kids kept getting hit, things may have gotten ugly. It's hard to put into writing how dangerous this kid was and you had to be there to understand how unique the situation was.

 

Don't forget the liability issues. If a kid gets hurt in a situation like this don't expect much success in defending yourself by saying "as an umpire the rules don't allow me to pull players." I'm a lawyer and I'd be salivating at the thought of cross-examining you.

 

PS. I think about this once in a while and the only reason I can come up with for the coach's behavior (he's a good guy until game time then he becomes crazed about winning) was that he was hoping the batters would be intimidated to the point they wouldn't bat well (admittedly pure speculation). 

[Replacematt]

I once told a coach I would pull his starting pitcher if he hit another batter. Every umpire I've ever spoken to about this told me I was wrong but I would do it again if the situation were the same (which thankfully is not likely). 

 

It was a Cal Ripken majors game so mostly eleven and twelve year olds. I'd been involved in the league for several years and the pitcher was by far the hardest throwing kid I'd seen in the league. I don't remember him ever putting the ball over the plate as he put it into the batter's box and four or five of the first seven or eight batters were hit with a couple ending up on the ground after being hit hard. (The batters who didn't get hit all had very close calls and darned good reflexes.) Between hit batters and walks the offense was putting runs on the board and the defensive coach didn't seem to care at all (?). It's been a few years but I think after the sixth hit batter I went up to the coach and told him if one more batter got hit I was going to pull the pitcher. I was hoping he would pull the kid on his own after my saying this but no luck. He was pretty ticked off and told me that wasn't the rule (which in general I don't dispute). I told him if I thought the situation was dangerous I could take whatever steps I thought necessary to protect the kids. The inning ended due to the mercy rule without another batter being hit and during the change one of the assistant coaches came up to me and somewhat sheepishly told me the kid wouldn't be back on the mound. I can't say for sure but I'm relatively certain he didn't pitch in that league again despite playing the rest of that season and the next.

 

Where children are involved I won't slavishly adhere to rules when I think there is a strong likelihood of injury and maybe a serious injury at that. We've all seen wild, hard throwing pitchers but this kid was just plain dangerous to the point that I thought it was a question of when, not if, a child was going to get seriously hurt. To a lesser extent there's also a game management consideration as I could hear parents getting pretty heated in the stands and if kids kept getting hit, things may have gotten ugly. It's hard to put into writing how dangerous this kid was and you had to be there to understand how unique the situation was.

 

Don't forget the liability issues. If a kid gets hurt in a situation like this don't expect much success in defending yourself by saying "as an umpire the rules don't allow me to pull players." I'm a lawyer and I'd be salivating at the thought of cross-examining you.

 

PS. I think about this once in a while and the only reason I can come up with for the coach's behavior (he's a good guy until game time then he becomes crazed about winning) was that he was hoping the batters would be intimidated to the point they wouldn't bat well (admittedly pure speculation). 

 

Umpires umpire. Coaches coach. Lawyers practice law. You can't do all of them at the same time.

 

Also, just try to sue an umpire under this situation. That BS about you salivating? Please. There is no liability here on the part of the umpire. If there was, at least one of the lawsuits that have ever been filed against a sports official would have been successful--and that hasn't happened.

[ALStripes17]

I once told a coach I would pull his starting pitcher if he hit another batter. Every umpire I've ever spoken to about this told me I was wrong but I would do it again if the situation were the same (which thankfully is not likely).

It was a Cal Ripken majors game so mostly eleven and twelve year olds. I'd been involved in the league for several years and the pitcher was by far the hardest throwing kid I'd seen in the league. I don't remember him ever putting the ball over the plate as he put it into the batter's box and four or five of the first seven or eight batters were hit with a couple ending up on the ground after being hit hard. (The batters who didn't get hit all had very close calls and darned good reflexes.) Between hit batters and walks the offense was putting runs on the board and the defensive coach didn't seem to care at all (?). It's been a few years but I think after the sixth hit batter I went up to the coach and told him if one more batter got hit I was going to pull the pitcher. I was hoping he would pull the kid on his own after my saying this but no luck. He was pretty ticked off and told me that wasn't the rule (which in general I don't dispute). I told him if I thought the situation was dangerous I could take whatever steps I thought necessary to protect the kids. The inning ended due to the mercy rule without another batter being hit and during the change one of the assistant coaches came up to me and somewhat sheepishly told me the kid wouldn't be back on the mound. I can't say for sure but I'm relatively certain he didn't pitch in that league again despite playing the rest of that season and the next.

Where children are involved I won't slavishly adhere to rules when I think there is a strong likelihood of injury and maybe a serious injury at that. We've all seen wild, hard throwing pitchers but this kid was just plain dangerous to the point that I thought it was a question of when, not if, a child was going to get seriously hurt. To a lesser extent there's also a game management consideration as I could hear parents getting pretty heated in the stands and if kids kept getting hit, things may have gotten ugly. It's hard to put into writing how dangerous this kid was and you had to be there to understand how unique the situation was.

Don't forget the liability issues. If a kid gets hurt in a situation like this don't expect much success in defending yourself by saying "as an umpire the rules don't allow me to pull players." I'm a lawyer and I'd be salivating at the thought of cross-examining you.

PS. I think about this once in a while and the only reason I can come up with for the coach's behavior (he's a good guy until game time then he becomes crazed about winning) was that he was hoping the batters would be intimidated to the point they wouldn't bat well (admittedly pure speculation).

My liability lies with the rule book.

Youth batters (and their parents) assume the inherent risk of injury whether it's Mr. Eephus throwing cloud-kissers or Randy Johnson throwing fireballs.

Unless there is a local league rule governing hit batters, it's none of my business. I can't wait for your cross-examination because you would look like a fool.

[JaxRolo]

Sut-can't make up your own rules

[Richvee]

If I'm doing kids under 12 and I've got a kid throwing extremely hard, hitting 5-6 kids, we've got a  situation. I think if another kid gets hit at that point I'll toss the pitcher. Anyone who tells me I can't do that, my response will be "In my judgement he intentionaly threw at the batter. He's done." 

[Rich Ives]

If I'm doing kids under 12 and I've got a kid throwing extremely hard, hitting 5-6 kids, we've got a  situation. I think if another kid gets hit at that point I'll toss the pitcher. Anyone who tells me I can't do that, my response will be "In my judgement he intentionaly threw at the batter. He's done." 

 

Don't even think about it.

[Richvee]

 

If I'm doing kids under 12 and I've got a kid throwing extremely hard, hitting 5-6 kids, we've got a  situation. I think if another kid gets hit at that point I'll toss the pitcher. Anyone who tells me I can't do that, my response will be "In my judgement he intentionaly threw at the batter. He's done." 

 

Don't even think about it.

 

So tell me, Rich. You're coaching a regular season LL game. Opposing team sends  this 6foot 12 year old to the hill who's in the middle of a 6inch growth spurt over the last few months, and let's just say his coordination hasn't caught up to his newly found strength yet. He's throwing as hard as he can and he has no clue where the ball's going. He's hit 5 kids already and hasn't retired a batter yet. 2 Kids have 2nd elbows growing out of their forearms, another one is counting the baseball stitches imprinted on his thigh, and 2 of your littlest guys are sitting on the bench sobbing uncontrollably because that's what little kids do when they get hit with rock hard projectiles in their guts, ribs, or, God forbid, their heads. I've been hit straight in the mask 3 times, and I've taken countless shots to the gut, arms, and thighs because the 4 foot 4 F2 can't catch anything, let alone a ball thrown from this kid who has no idea where it's going. Your opponent has no intention of taking this kid out of the game. You want me to stand behind the plate and watch this keep going on and do nothing about it? Are you seriously going to tell me you're comfortable to continue send your little guys up to the plate after seeing this go on for the past 5-6 batters? Rules be damned....I'm stopping this. 

[Rich Ives]

 

 

If I'm doing kids under 12 and I've got a kid throwing extremely hard, hitting 5-6 kids, we've got a  situation. I think if another kid gets hit at that point I'll toss the pitcher. Anyone who tells me I can't do that, my response will be "In my judgement he intentionaly threw at the batter. He's done." 

 

Don't even think about it.

 

So tell me, Rich. You're coaching a regular season LL game. Opposing team sends  this 6foot 12 year old to the hill who's in the middle of a 6inch growth spurt over the last few months, and let's just say his coordination hasn't caught up to his newly found strength yet. He's throwing as hard as he can and he has no clue where the ball's going. He's hit 5 kids already and hasn't retired a batter yet. 2 Kids have 2nd elbows growing out of their forearms, another one is counting the baseball stitches imprinted on his thigh, and 2 of your littlest guys are sitting on the bench sobbing uncontrollably because that's what little kids do when they get hit with rock hard projectiles in their guts, ribs, or, God forbid, their heads. I've been hit straight in the mask 3 times, and I've taken countless shots to the gut, arms, and thighs because the 4 foot 4 F2 can't catch anything, let alone a ball thrown from this kid who has no idea where it's going. Your opponent has no intention of taking this kid out of the game. You want me to stand behind the plate and watch this keep going on and do nothing about it? Are you seriously going to tell me you're comfortable to continue send your little guys up to the plate after seeing this go on for the past 5-6 batters? Rules be damned....I'm stopping this. 

 

 

 

Been there. Several times. Have to live with it. Comes with the territory. And kids can duck better than you give them credit. Been doing this since 1974. I'm not without clues. And no one is that wild that they hit the first 5-6 batters. If they're that wild they're hitting the backstop, the dirt, the sky, the opposite batter's box, etc. not just the batter.

 

And  BTW - if you know that the kid doesn't know where the pitch is going how can you in good conscience accuse him of intentionally hitting a batter?  Huh? Huh?

 

You don't want the coaches umpiring?  Then don't coach.

 

Oh yeah - I've been on both ends of games with scores like 34 -4. Comes with the territory too.

[ALStripes17]

If I'm doing kids under 12 and I've got a kid throwing extremely hard, hitting 5-6 kids, we've got a situation. I think if another kid gets hit at that point I'll toss the pitcher. Anyone who tells me I can't do that, my response will be "In my judgement he intentionaly threw at the batter. He's done."

Don't even think about it.

So tell me, Rich. You're coaching a regular season LL game. Opposing team sends this 6foot 12 year old to the hill who's in the middle of a 6inch growth spurt over the last few months, and let's just say his coordination hasn't caught up to his newly found strength yet. He's throwing as hard as he can and he has no clue where the ball's going. He's hit 5 kids already and hasn't retired a batter yet. 2 Kids have 2nd elbows growing out of their forearms, another one is counting the baseball stitches imprinted on his thigh, and 2 of your littlest guys are sitting on the bench sobbing uncontrollably because that's what little kids do when they get hit with rock hard projectiles in their guts, ribs, or, God forbid, their heads. I've been hit straight in the mask 3 times, and I've taken countless shots to the gut, arms, and thighs because the 4 foot 4 F2 can't catch anything, let alone a ball thrown from this kid who has no idea where it's going. Your opponent has no intention of taking this kid out of the game. You want me to stand behind the plate and watch this keep going on and do nothing about it? Are you seriously going to tell me you're comfortable to continue send your little guys up to the plate after seeing this go on for the past 5-6 batters? Rules be damned....I'm stopping this.

It's not in the umpire's realm to force substitutions. This isn't our jurisdiction. That's on the coaches.

[hill2933]

I would have a hard time removing a pitcher who I did not think was intentionally throwing at batters. I was just wondering how you guys deal with the other side of this, the kid who can't swing the bat without the bat launching into a fence or at your head. I have seen numerous guys warn for this and even call BR out. Not sure where the out comes from but if you can warn a batter for a safety issue why not F1? Just wondering.

[basejester]

I would have a hard time removing a pitcher who I did not think was intentionally throwing at batters. I was just wondering how you guys deal with the other side of this, the kid who can't swing the bat without the bat launching into a fence or at your head. I have seen numerous guys warn for this and even call BR out. Not sure where the out comes from but if you can warn a batter for a safety issue why not F1? Just wondering.

If throwing at the batter is intentional, you can warn and eject.

 

If it's not intentional, then warning him to stop can't achieve anything.  He's already, by definition, trying not to hit the batter.

[hill2933]

 

I would have a hard time removing a pitcher who I did not think was intentionally throwing at batters. I was just wondering how you guys deal with the other side of this, the kid who can't swing the bat without the bat launching into a fence or at your head. I have seen numerous guys warn for this and even call BR out. Not sure where the out comes from but if you can warn a batter for a safety issue why not F1? Just wondering.

If throwing at the batter is intentional, you can warn and eject.

 

If it's not intentional, then warning him to stop can't achieve anything.  He's already, by definition, trying not to hit the batter.

 

How do you deal with a kid who is unintentionally throwing his bat at you and F2? Thats where my question comes from.