Nightmare

[Stan W.]

Preventative umpiring.  

 

 

You got to be careful with that ......a coach has 3 weapons in his arsenal, his offense, his defense and his rules knowledge....if the opposing coach knows that is an out for using an illegal sub under these rules and you "preventive umpire" him out of an out, you will deserve the butt chewing you will get........ 

 

There is a line between preventive umpiring and assisting a team..........

Edited October 21, 2014 by Stan W.
clarity

[blue23ll]

 

Preventative umpiring.  

 

 

You got to be careful with that ......a coach has 3 weapons in his arsenal, his offense, his defense and his rules knowledge....if the opposing coach knows that is an out for using an illegal sub under these rules and you "preventive umpire" him out of an out, you will deserve the butt chewing you will get........ 

 

There is a line between preventive umpiring and assisting a team.........

 

We keep the line up cards and substitutions come through us. Do we allow the illegal substitution? I contend we don't. Your thoughts?

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray according to you, definition of authority and who is an authority here.

For FED I wouldn't mind a case play or a ruling.

[MadMax]

I'd agree with you, @blue23ll, in every commonplace instance except the situation posed by @FleasOf1000Camels... His game is using a different rules set, and in it, it says an infraction like this is an out.

 

Turn the table around... If the supposed improper CR came out, set up on 1B, we (the umpires) call "Play" and a pick-off attempt is made (thus constituting a "play"), whereupon the DHC tells his F1 / F2 to ask for time, comes out, and makes us aware of the illegal CR, what are we going to do? Are we going to call it an out? Are we going to rectify it and have the OT place a proper CR on 1B instead? We're not going to do anything but refer / remind the DHC of the rules – which clearly state (according to the post) that any notification of an improper CR has to be done prior to a pitch or play. SOL. 

[Richvee]

So, if this was FED, as soon as the coach announced the illegal CR one or both of you should call the CR out and restrict him to the bench?

 

3.1.1 SITUATION R:

In the first inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the pitcher. In the second inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the catcher.

RULING: Upon discovery, C1 is called out and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

 

So, I'm PU, OHC says, "Time. Rich, I've got #2 courtesy running for my catcher." 

Do I allow it, knowing #2 ran for the pitcher in the 1st inning, then call #2 out and restrict him, or, when OHC tells me #2 is coming in to courtesy for F2, do I say, "no Bob, he can't. He ran for the pitcher in the 1st inning"...? 

[Jimurray]

So, if this was FED, as soon as the coach announced the illegal CR one or both of you should call the CR out and restrict him to the bench?

3.1.1 SITUATION R:

In the first inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the pitcher. In the second inning, C1 is a courtesy runner for the catcher.

RULING: Upon discovery, C1 is called out and restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

So, I'm PU, OHC says, "Time. Rich, I've got #2 courtesy running for my catcher."

Do I allow it, knowing #2 ran for the pitcher in the 1st inning, then call #2 out and restrict him, or, when OHC tells me #2 is coming in to courtesy for F2, do I say, "no Bob, he can't. He ran for the pitcher in the 1st inning"...?

I think the caseplay, using the phrase "is a courtesy runner" implies that the CR is on base when discovered and IMHO was not discovered by the umpire when the change was announced.

We need a caseplay that says when the coach announces an improper sub/CR to the umpire the sub/CR will be declared out and restricted.

[grayhawk]

I wouldn't allow it if I caught it. A player who's not yet in the game should not be called out.

[Jimurray]

I wouldn't allow it if I caught it. A player who's not yet in the game should not be called out.

I think a sub who is announced is in the game as of the announcement in OBR, NCAA and I think FED also. But I lean toward the preventative umpiring solution.

Edited to add:

And I think OBR supports preventative solution also:

3.03 A player, or players, may be substituted during a game at any time the ball is dead. A substitute player shall bat in the replaced player’s position in the team’s batting order. A player once removed from a game shall not re-enter that game. If a player who has been substituted for attempts to re-enter, or re-enters, the game in any capacity, the umpire-in- chief shall direct the player’s manager to remove such player from the game immediately upon noticing the player’s presence or upon being informed of the player’s improper pres- ence by another umpire or by either manager. If such direction to remove the substituted- for player occurs before play commences with the substituted-for player improperly in the game, then the substitute player may enter the game.