Good Toss or Bad Blood?

[tankmjg24]

in my neck of the woods fall ball tournaments have finally picked up.  There is a particular team who has a coach who has a reputation of being a bit of a loud mouth.  This past weekend as my partner and I were having our pre game, he stated to me that he was not going to put up with any crap from this manager.  I am PU and he is BU.  There are a few close pick off plays at first that the manager felt were outs, but my partner called them safe.  Each time there was some mumblings from the dugout, but nothing too overbearing.  After the first one, my partner gave the stare of death towards the dugout, after the second one (which was not as close as the first one), he just ignored him, and after the third one, he calls time and hells towards the dugout, "coach that is enough, we are not going to debate safes and outs".  At this point the manager stands up and wants timeout.  Time is granted and he starts a slow jog out towards my partner.  My partner puts his hand up towards the coach, but the coach keeps coming towards him.  My partner still has his hand up, and the coach hells out loud enough for most of the stadium to hear "no way you are going to yell into the dugout like that and not hear from me".  At this point my partner ejects and starts jogging towards the outfield and I start to play rodeo clown.  The manager gripes a bit about the missed calls at first and that my partner shouldn't be yelling at him like that, but he eventually leaves the field.  So what are everyone's thoughts on this? 

[JaxRolo]

Poor management by partner.

[guyinaredhat]

He has his steps mixed up.

1 ignore

2 acknowledge (death stare)

3warn

4 eject

[blue23ll]

Don't do something that you would eject a coach for doing. Yelling at me from the dugout is a no - no, so I don't yell into the dugout. If they want to talk, they will come to me. 

[Magic]

Horrible. Don't ever bring previous problems onto the field with you. Each game is a clean slate.

[Replacematt]

There's a fine line between bringing the baggage with you and knowing that there's a different approach that you may have to use with certain problem coaches (and the general problem is a habit of trying to game umpires and opponents.) I make no bones that I will not give particular coaches the same rope that I will give others. I'm not going to create trouble, I'm not going to add to trouble, but I do not let them go down rabbit holes. With non-problem coaches, I may let them go down the primrose path to make their case. 

[refump10]

Game management (which to me mostly means people management) separates the pretty good umpires from the really good umpires.  We've all worked with partners who are sound fundamentally, have fine judgment, generally call a solid game.  But they hang themselves with their lack of people skills. Sounds like your partner has a history with this guy, and he let the past seep into the present.  One of the things I used to really like is the baseball tradition is that you could EJ a manager today and a general sh!tstorm, but tomorrow it's a new day.  That is eroding somewhat in anything but pro ball, and I understand the reasoning, but I did like the clean slate approach.  We expect that from coaches, but we also have to hold ourselves to the same standard.

 

Now, especially in school ball (and many tournaments) there are automatic suspensions that result from EJ's, and I find myself trying very hard to keep coaches in the game if they will let me.  I have worked over 100 games this year and can think of only one game where in the past I would have easily EJ'd the coach.  I didn't launch him, and that's okay. In retrospect, I feel like I didn't because I knew that if I did, it's a $100 fine and an automatic suspension from the state.  The world didn't fall apart, my authority on the field wasn't diminished, and everybody lived to fight another day.  I used people management skills to defuse the situation.  I happened to see him again three days later on the same field.  At the plate conference, he looked at me and said, "hey, we battled the other night but we got through it."  I just told him yeah we did, but today's a new day, let's have fun.

 

I also referee basketball, and a rule of thumb that is used in regards to technical fouls is "will calling it make the game better?"  Meaning that is the behavior enough that it's affecting MY game, or the general atmosphere of the game itself? If I had launched that coach, I think it would have made things measurably worse, so I felt like I handled it okay.  20 years ago, I wouldn't have had the people skills to handle that coach and he would've been gone.  I'm not saying I'm now a doormat: if they gotta go, they gotta go, and I'm not afraid to get rid of them if I have to. So far this (my first year back on the diamond in a long time) has served me okay. 

 

That said, I have a doubleheader Saturday, and since I've jinxed myself I'll have three EJ's and both games will go extra innings! 

[BalkHawk]

How many times have you seen an mlb umpire eject and then jog to the outfield?

[MadMax]

How many times have you seen an mlb umpire eject and then jog to the outfield?

 

Yeah, wasn't there still a R1? Why would there be a change of positioning?

 

If you Eject someone, you best stand your ground, or at least return to the position you were in. You eject and jog away, somewhere arbitrarily? Bad form.

 

If there aren't any "magic words"* being emitted from the dugout, then there really isn't any reason to address the dugout (yell towards it, whatever... especially calling Time to do so). That whole thing of "Coach that's enough, we're not debating safes and outs" is like spraying bug spray on a hornet's nest. You think you're doing something to squelch them, but all you're doing is pi$$ing them off more. Best to ignore them until a Magic Word is said, or until a/the coach comes out from the dugout. Besides, you didn't say which inning this occurred! If this was an early inning, that's far too early to be giving "death stares"! My Cold Stare of Utter Contempt doesn't show up until at least late in the 5th inning. There's a look that @Jocko has perfected known as the WTHIYFP?**, that I've been working on perfecting. That could certainly be employed far more effectively than dumping the guy that quick. This, this looks like your partner walked into the game with the pin already pulled on the grenade.

 

* - Such words would be "sh!t" "calls" "horse" "your" "are", or words to that effect. May be in a different sequence.

** - What The Hell Is Your F(rea)king Problem?

[renegadewolf]

Right from the get go your partner was setting himself up for trouble with the "he stated to me that he was not going to put up with any crap from this manager" attitude.  He was quite obviously looking to toss this guy and used any flimsy excuse he could come up with to satisfy his desire.  Bad toss, bad intentions and a bad attitude.  As has been mentioned history is history so get over it and play ball.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

How many times have you seen an mlb umpire eject and then jog to the outfield?

I don't like the ejection here, but I thought we were suppose to walk away from a coach after an ejection, am I wrong about that?

[MadMax]

How many times have you seen an mlb umpire eject and then jog to the outfield?

I don't like the ejection here, but I thought we were suppose to walk away from a coach after an ejection, am I wrong about that?

Walk away, with a purpose and direction? Yes. If it's during gameplay, though, you have a game to get back to. Return to your position, or if your position is where you are standing, stand your ground. This, too, means that the ejectee has traveled out _to_ you. The important thing is to get the game resumed and back on track.

[BaltimoreUmpire]

How many times have you seen an mlb umpire eject and then jog to the outfield?

I don't like the ejection here, but I thought we were suppose to walk away from a coach after an ejection, am I wrong about that? Walk away, with a purpose and direction? Yes. If it's during gameplay, though, you have a game to get back to. Return to your position, or if your position is where you are standing, stand your ground. This, too, means that the ejectee has traveled out _to_ you. The important thing is to get the game resumed and back on track.Ok thanks for clearing that up, never had to deal with it yet but its important to know.

[JasonPalo]

Did he warn if so good job, what I don't agree is with the death stare, I will usually tell the coach that's enough lets play ball if he continues he's gone simple as that.

[Replacematt]

Did he warn if so good job, what I don't agree is with the death stare, I will usually tell the coach that's enough lets play ball if he continues he's gone simple as that.

 

The death stare can be a very effective tool if used properly, unlike the OP.

[UMP45]

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

[Platejob29]

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

[UMP45]

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

I'll let PBUC know.

[Replacematt]

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

[Platejob29]

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

I'll let PBUC know.

 

They don't teach that at umpire school. Professional baseball doesn't use that paint by numbers ejection protocol. 

[Platejob29]

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

 

Definitely not misunderstanding what they said. I don't think that should be considered giving out horrible advice. It's all dependent on what your goals are. Mine are to move up the professional baseball ranks and in professional baseball they typically don't embrace the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, eject approach.  If I had any desire to move up the college ranks to D1 where that system is encouraged then yes it would probably be bad advice but quite frankly that has no appeal to me. 

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

 

Definitely not misunderstanding what they said. I don't think that should be considered giving out horrible advice. It's all dependent on what your goals are. Mine are to move up the professional baseball ranks and in professional baseball they typically don't embrace the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, eject approach.  If I had any desire to move up the college ranks to D1 where that system is encouraged then yes it would probably be bad advice but quite frankly that has no appeal to me. 

 

 

If that's your logic, then why bring your issues with this approach up in a thread about youth ball? It's neither relevant nor helpful.

[UMP45]

 

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

 

Definitely not misunderstanding what they said. I don't think that should be considered giving out horrible advice. It's all dependent on what your goals are. Mine are to move up the professional baseball ranks and in professional baseball they typically don't embrace the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, eject approach.  If I had any desire to move up the college ranks to D1 where that system is encouraged then yes it would probably be bad advice but quite frankly that has no appeal to me. 

 

So your saying this is not taught in pro school?

[Platejob29]

 

 

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

 

Definitely not misunderstanding what they said. I don't think that should be considered giving out horrible advice. It's all dependent on what your goals are. Mine are to move up the professional baseball ranks and in professional baseball they typically don't embrace the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, eject approach.  If I had any desire to move up the college ranks to D1 where that system is encouraged then yes it would probably be bad advice but quite frankly that has no appeal to me. 

 

So your saying this is not taught in pro school?

 

At pro school they don't teach the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, then eject approach. At pro school when they go over situations they teach warn if possible then eject. If the situation doesn't call for a warning or escalates too quickly for a warning then eject without a warning.

[Replacematt]

 

 

 

 

 

It is now taught as:

1 Ignore  

2 Acknowledge  

3 Engage  

4 Warn  

5 Eject

I get why this s taught but it just simply doesn't work. Well I should say it doesn't work as well as ignoring when necessary, warning when necessary, and ejecting when necessary. Not every situation is the same therefore situation handling shouldn't be handled the same way. Yes it's a good base to start out with and it helps to bring everybody to a similar standard but all it has several down falls as well. It also depends on the level of ball you're working and how that league or conference handles their situations/ejections. I've had several college assigners say throw that out the window all it will do is get you run over. Just my $.02.

 

 

You're arguing against something that hasn't been said. No one has said that this method should be used all the time. It's a method for dealing with chirping, whining, and bitching and moaning, not for egregious acts. If someone starts off whining about balls and strikes with "Get the dick out of your mouth and start calling strikes," I'm not using this.

 

Also, who are these mystery "college assignors" who keep putting out horrible advice? You're the second poster (that I know of) in the last ten days that has stated that their college assignor has recommended something entirely counterproductive at best, and horrifically career-stalling/ending at worst. At least in the other case, I know the poster is full of SH*# and has integrity issues. I don't know if you have bad assignors or are misunderstanding what they said.

 

Definitely not misunderstanding what they said. I don't think that should be considered giving out horrible advice. It's all dependent on what your goals are. Mine are to move up the professional baseball ranks and in professional baseball they typically don't embrace the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, eject approach.  If I had any desire to move up the college ranks to D1 where that system is encouraged then yes it would probably be bad advice but quite frankly that has no appeal to me. 

 

So your saying this is not taught in pro school?

 

At pro school they don't teach the ignore, acknowledge, engage, warn, then eject approach. At pro school when they go over situations they teach warn if possible then eject. If the situation doesn't call for a warning or escalates too quickly for a warning then eject without a warning.

 

 

So, what are you doing with the chirper before you get to the point of warning?