Pulled foot...

[stl_ump]

So what's the proper way to "get the call right"?

 

Make the out call and wait for someone to ask you to get help or ask for help before making your call and then make it based on the information given.  Or is there a 3rd option?

Thanks

[noumpere]

Either way can be proper and has its own supporters.  I prefer make the call first.  Your partner might have other responsibilities or be blocked out too.  But, if I'm PU and asked before the call, I give what I have.

[pnewton]

You have to make a call at the time.  There is always a chance your partner didn't see anything and now from the outside you might look like you're just making up the call and your partner might feel like you are throwing him under the bus.  If you think you might have missed something and someone asks you can ask if your partner has something that you didn't (you want to be specific about this sort of thing).

[umpire_scott]

Probably depends on how certain or uncertain I am on the call.  If there was specific information that I was certain my partner had information on then I might come to him right away. For example with no runners on and throw that pulls F3 off the bag if I get straight-lined on the swipe tag I may go directly to my partner and ask "did you have a tag".  This would have to be a partner that I saw doing his job coming up the line and was confident would react accordingly.

 

The vast majority of the time however I will make the call and own it unless the coach comes out to ask and I think my partner may have had a better look at it.  And, much to the chagrin of others on this board, if the coach feels like my partner had a better angle for something I may go to him as well.

 

This is also something I pregame with partners.  Some prefer coming right to me and others want to make the call and only get together if the coach requests it.  I'm pretty flexible with this and think each situation is different.

[umpire_scott]

You have to make a call at the time.  There is always a chance your partner didn't see anything and now from the outside you might look like you're just making up the call and your partner might feel like you are throwing him under the bus.  If you think you might have missed something and someone asks you can ask if your partner has something that you didn't (you want to be specific about this sort of thing).

 

I agree with this.  You have to be careful about coming directly to him because he may look at you or hesitate and it can make both of you look bad, especially if he didn't see it for whatever reason.  I would only do it with a partner I was very comfortable with and would have pregamed it so he was expecting it.

[stl_ump]

OK.. good info.  

This was a no one on situation.  VERY big stretch for F3 and he very easily could have been off and as hard as I tried, I just couldn't see if there was that small gap between his foot and the bag.  I had the correct angle initially but the throw was off line so I lost my angle.

I did see partner was looking at the play and knew he could be counted on.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[noumpere]

I probably would NOT go to my partner on that play.

 

If F3's foot is on the 2B side of first -- you should see it (unless you took a poor position too far out to start).

 

If F3's foot is on the HP side or OF side of first, PU will have no angle on it.

[refump10]

Do your best to get the best angle you can, then make the call.  Sometimes you will have to sell that call, but make the call.  After the dust settles, then you can go to your partner to see if he may have had something different. And for pete's sake, if you get together, do it away from everybody else and have the conversation.  If you decide to change the call, then YOU make the change, not your partner.  Then, when the sh!tstorm hits, YOU take charge of it.  Tell the skipper that it is your call, and YOU went to your partner for more information, and any further discussion will be with you and not your partner. 

 

I had this happen to me earlier this year in a HS game; I'm PU with R2, no outs.  Errant throw from F4 on a grounder takes F3 up and off the bag toward the home side where F3 attempts a swipe tag.  My partner is in a pretty good position, watches the play, hesitates a moment, then points to me: "whatcha got?"  Uh, the plate and a runner touching third?  Good times.

[Replacematt]

OK.. good info.  

This was a no one on situation.  VERY big stretch for F3 and he very easily could have been off and as hard as I tried, I just couldn't see if there was that small gap between his foot and the bag.  I had the correct angle initially but the throw was off line so I lost my angle.

I did see partner was looking at the play and knew he could be counted on.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Let's use this as a teaching tool.

 

Why didn't you see if there was a gap? Where were you and where was the stretch?

[stl_ump]

I'm all for getting schooled. 

 

Got my nice angle and he's set up to take a "normal" throw from F6.

 

It's off line to the outfield side of 1st and when he makes his stretch and reaches for the ball he pretty much has his face and arm directly toward me. So now I'm looking at him right in the mug.  So pretty much a straight line from his head to his foot to the bag.  

 

If I had suspected it was going to be a bad throw I would have adjusted and been in a different spot.

 

Should I be watching the ball to see if it is a good throw or not?  I thought I should be waiting for that "ball in the glove" vs. "runner's foot on the bag" "thing"

 

Thanks

[Replacematt]

I'm all for getting schooled. 

 

Got my nice angle and he's set up to take a "normal" throw from F6.

 

It's off line to the outfield side of 1st and when he makes his stretch and reaches for the ball he pretty much has his face and arm directly toward me. So now I'm looking at him right in the mug.  So pretty much a straight line from his head to his foot to the bag.  

 

If I had suspected it was going to be a bad throw I would have adjusted and been in a different spot.

 

Should I be watching the ball to see if it is a good throw or not?  I thought I should be waiting for that "ball in the glove" vs. "runner's foot on the bag" "thing"

 

Thanks

 

Exactly. Keep your eyes on the fielder making the play until you read that the throw is true, then snap your head to the bag.

 

In this case, you would have seen the throw coming off-line, then you could have made a read step (most likely to your left) to get an angle on F3 coming off the bag towards the outfield. When this happens, you aren't going to see the play from hands-on-knees set, but that's less important than getting mobile and getting an angle.

[Richvee]

 

 

Should I be watching the ball to see if it is a good throw or not?  I thought I should be waiting for that "ball in the glove" vs. "runner's foot on the bag" "thing"

 

 

YES! Watch the throw. Judge a good throw, get set to make your call. Judge a bad throw, and adjust accordingly. 

[stl_ump]

Excellent!

I think this old dog can learn some new tricks.

Thanks!

[Jocko]

Read step, read step, read step. Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY. Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to. A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often. A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together. If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

[immaculate1976]

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 

Jocko you wrote on another post

Any BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 

I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?

[Replacematt]

 

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 

Jocko you wrote on another post

Any BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 

I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?

 

 

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.

[umpire_scott]

I think one thing that is not being considered regarding this are field conditions.  With a well conditioned field you are much more likely to reliably see the gap.  With some of the trashing all dirt infields I've seen there is definitely good reason to go for help as seeing that gap is much more difficult when the dirt around the foot is all torn up.

[immaculate1976]

 

 

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 

Jocko you wrote on another post

Any BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 

I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?

 

 

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.

 

 

He said never go to your partner now he is saying go to your partner. 

[Jocko]

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 

Jocko you wrote on another post

Any BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 

I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?

 

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.

 

He said never go to your partner now he is saying go to your partner.

if you didnt read step....if you didnt do your job....if your partner gives you "the look"....etc. THEN get together. Again, 99.9999999% of the time, you should NOT need help. But, then, I am a damn good umpire with damn good partners. ;)

[noumpere]

I think one thing that is not being considered regarding this are field conditions.  With a well conditioned field you are much more likely to reliably see the gap.  With some of the trashing all dirt infields I've seen there is definitely good reason to go for help as seeing that gap is much more difficult when the dirt around the foot is all torn up.

If you can't see it because of the dirt, then he's still close enough to be on the base.

[RichMSN]

Exactly. If there's that much dust or you have to split hairs, he's out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Jocko]

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 Jocko you wrote on another postAny BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?  

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.  

He said never go to your partner now he is saying go to your partner.if you didnt read step....if you didnt do your job....if your partner gives you "the look"....etc. THEN get together. Again, 99.9999999% of the time, you should NOT need help. But, then, I am a damn good umpire with damn good partners. and, for the record, I was in referring to BU getting help while he's in A. And I still stand behind that. If you're in the working area with no rotations, HP doing HIS job is to assist you on a pulled foot/swipe tag, should you need another set of eyes.

I never once said never get together. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[immaculate1976]

 

 

 

 

 

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 Jocko you wrote on another postAny BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?  

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.  

He said never go to your partner now he is saying go to your partner. if you didnt read step....if you didnt do your job....if your partner gives you "the look"....etc. THEN get together. Again, 99.9999999% of the time, you should NOT need help. But, then, I am a damn good umpire with damn good partners. and, for the record, I was in referring to BU getting help while he's in A. And I still stand behind that. If you're in the working area with no rotations, HP doing HIS job is to assist you on a pulled foot/swipe tag, should you need another set of eyes.

I never once said never get together. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

 

You said you have kicked plays at first in the A position and then you said you have never went to your partner for help in the A position. So what you are saying is you would rather kick a play then go to your partner and get it right. 

[Replacematt]

Get where you need to be. AND MAKE A CALL. SWAG IF NECESSARY.

Then, when play relaxes, call time amd get together if you feel you need to

A crew should be able to read each other without getting together too often.

A look at HP should tell you all you need to know. If you see something odd from HP, get together.

If you get a fist bump, a nod, or whatever your "good call" signal is, even better.

 

 Jocko you wrote on another postAny BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners. 

 I am confused cause before you said even if you kick the play oh well you are not going to talk to your partner cause you are worth your salt (Not sure what that means unless you are a horse). Now you are saying it is ok to talk to your partner. Do you change your view day to day or does it change with who post? or did you come around to the ideal that getting help on a play to make sure it is the right call is better than your pride?

 

This has nothing to do with pride. An umpire in A is more likely to get it right on his own than by going to his partner.

 

He said never go to your partner now he is saying go to your partner.

if you didnt read step....if you didnt do your job....if your partner gives you "the look"....etc. THEN get together. Again, 99.9999999% of the time, you should NOT need help. But, then, I am a damn good umpire with damn good partners.

and, for the record, I was in referring to BU getting help while he's in A. And I still stand behind that. If you're in the working area with no rotations, HP doing HIS job is to assist you on a pulled foot/swipe tag, should you need another set of eyes.

I never once said never get together. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

You said you have kicked plays at first in the A position and then you said you have never went to your partner for help in the A position. So what you are saying is you would rather kick a play then go to your partner and get it right.

No, he didn't.

[ricka56]

I am reminded of a guy from Michigan, who claimed to be a UIC, bad-mouthed other sports officials, often used accusatory language (rarely justifiably), and was recently banned from a different umpire forum. If he showed up here, I wouldn't indulge his antics.