Detached equipment on foul ball

[Replacematt]

Had a new one tonight...no one on, batter rolls one down the 3B line a couple of feet in foul territory. F2 is chasing it, and it hits the grass and starts to roll towards fair territory. F2 throws his mask and it touches the ball before it can go fair. I give BR 3B.

 

An inning later, HC (leisurely) says he looked up the rule, and it has to be a fair batted ball for the penalty to occur. I replied that the ball had a chance to go fair, and that is enough to invoke the penalty.

 

Now I'm wondering...does my logic hold water (cf. BR intentionally interfering with a ball over foul territory that may go fair) or does it, indeed, have to be fair? Further, could I use the logic that until it is touched, it is not foul?

[afaber12]

First off I like the logic, it feels like it follows the spirit of the rules, and I'm pretty sure if I'd come across this situation with the ball in foul territory but headed fair I'd likely rule the same way.

Unfortunately I'd've been wrong too, at least as far as my reading of the rules says.

7.05 says it has to be a fair ball for the award, and the definitions in 2.00 says while on/over foul territory it's foul if the ball touches any object foreign to the natural ground. You couldn't even try a fancy interpretation that because the mask touched the ball rather than the other way round, and if the ball wound up fair give the award. (I started to say you might try that but realised part way through it couldn't work, because the fielder who grabs/kicks it to keep it foul.)

[noumpere]

All codes have a "or a chance to go fair" clause / interp.

 

In OBR, it's NAPBL 3.9 (sorry, no updated references closer).

 

In FED it's 8-3-3B

 

NCAA -- sorry, not handy

[afaber12]

So it turns out I was wrong about being wrong. At least I'm consistent...

[DVA7130]

@Matt

I agree with how you ruled.

Treat as if fair.

Batter to third.

The ball is still live.

[CricketChapman]

All codes have a "or a chance to go fair" clause / interp.

 

In OBR, it's NAPBL 3.9 (sorry, no updated references closer).

 

In FED it's 8-3-3B

 

NCAA -- sorry, not handy

OBR - PBUC 6.9

[Haid D' Salaami]

@Matt

I agree with how you ruled.

Treat as if fair.

Batter to third.

The ball is still live.

it was touched foul... can it be live?

 

think about it?

[afaber12]

 

@Matt

I agree with how you ruled.

Treat as if fair.

Batter to third.

The ball is still live.

it was touched foul... can it be live?

 

think about it?

 

 

Though it would otherwise be a foul ball, the PBUC manual's interpretation specifically says the ball is live with runner's allowed to advance beyond their award at their own risk.

 

Apart from joking around in warmups and watching "A League Of Their Own", I've not seen a detached equipment situation in a game (fair or potentially fair but foul at the time). Would the correct mechanic be to essentially treat it the same as Type B OBS? Point to the infraction, I guess call "That's interference" even though its not one of the four types in the book but is more succinct than describing it in full, waiting for play to relax on its own and then, assuming that not all runners have scored and BR isn't yet at least at third base, call "Time" and award bases as appropriate? For the OP situation maybe add in a point fair after the infraction point especially if the ball deflects a long way away and there's a proper chance for the BR to score on his own?

[johnnyg08]

"That's detached equipment"  It's not interference so don't call interference.  

 

I wouldn't point fair b/c it's not a fair ball.  

[Replacematt]

I pointed at the ball, yelled "That's detached equipment," and killed it because it was in foul territory. Guess it should have been live, but it would have been a moot point, because that runner wouldn't have advanced. In fact, when I awarded him third, he cut straight across the infield--no appeal occurred. 

[noumpere]

It's still a foul ball.  I agree with killing it here.

[catsbackr]

No one else on base, what's the point in the ball remaining live?  The only thing your going to have is an award.

 

Also, I don't see anything wrong with "that's interference".  The catcher has "interfered" with the ball's chance to go fair.  Nobody else is going to notice the wording except another umpire.

[Senor Azul]

OBR rules 7.05 (b and c) do only speak of interference with a fair batted ball. It is through interpretation that we include balls over foul territory that could become fair. Here's some background on the rules about throwing detached equipment according to an historical reference note in the Wendelstedt manual:

 

The original rule regarding players throwing at, or catching, baseballs using their caps and equipment gave a one base award for all runners. The award was increased to two bases prior to 1900, and then three bases in 1910. In 1914, the rules were amended again to three bases for a batted ball and two bases for a thrown one. Because of absurdity of awarding bases on obviously foul balls, the rules were changed in 1954 to include only fair balls, with the interpretation including balls over foul territory that could become fair.

 

And here's how Mr. Wendelstedt tells us how to handle this on the field:

 

"The umpire will immediately signal a three base award. The ball is left in play and runners may advance beyond their award at their own peril. If the defense gains possession of the ball, and no runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will call time and award the runners three bases.

 

If, when the defense gains possession of the ball, at least one runner is attempting to advance, the umpire will leave the ball in play until all action ceases, or until a runner is tagged before reaching his awarded base."

 

 

So if the act of the defense throwing detached equipment knocks the ball far enough away to allow the runners to advance then the ball should be left live--otherwise kill it and make the award. As a side note, Carl Childress includes this kind of play in his section on "Interference."