Getting Help in A

[StrikeDavis]

Legion game, top 8, HT up 4-2.  Im PU, nobody on nobody out.  BU in A.  VT batter hits a groundball in the hole between F3 and F4.  F3 makes a diving stop and from his knees throws the ball to F1 covering first base.  F1 catches the throw then stutter steps and drags his foot to clip the front edge of first base one step before the batter touches first base.  BU calls the runner safe.  HT manager goes out to BU to question the call.  BU calls me over in front of the mound, chases the HT manager away and asks me what I have.  I responded by asking him if he had F1 missing first base.  He says he has F1 missing first base.  I said I am 100% sure F1 got the base.  He says ok, takes a few steps back, points to the runner and hammers him out.

 

I posed this scenario to several members of our association.  The majority of fellow umpires in our association basically told me to fish in my own pond and not his.  This is BU's call since he is in A and you may find yourself heading down a slippery slope for the rest of the game.  A small minority of umpires agreed with how we got together and handled the situation.  How would you handle this scenario as PU and BU (aside from not kicking the call in the first place)?

        

[Replacematt]

Legion game, top 8, HT up 4-2.  Im PU, nobody on nobody out.  BU in A.  VT batter hits a groundball in the hole between F3 and F4.  F3 makes a diving stop and from his knees throws the ball to F1 covering first base.  F1 catches the throw then stutter steps and drags his foot to clip the front edge of first base one step before the batter touches first base.  BU calls the runner safe.  HT manager goes out to BU to question the call.  BU calls me over in front of the mound, chases the HT manager away and asks me what I have.  I responded by asking him if he had F1 missing first base.  He says he has F1 missing first base.  I said I am 100% sure F1 got the base.  He says ok, takes a few steps back, points to the runner and hammers him out.

 

I posed this scenario to several members of our association.  The majority of fellow umpires in our association basically told me to fish in my own pond and not his.  This is BU's call since he is in A and you may find yourself heading down a slippery slope for the rest of the game.  A small minority of umpires agreed with how we got together and handled the situation.  How would you handle this scenario as PU and BU (aside from not kicking the call in the first place)?

I don't see any issue.

He felt that you may have something to offer. He asked you, in private, what you had. You responded with a specific piece of information, and he made his own decision. The only thing I would have had different would be that he should ask you a specific question--"Did he get the bag?" "Did he get a tag?"

[maven]

Agree with Matt, especially the last part: ask a focused question with a yes or no answer.

 

Partner needed help with a tight call, and you provided it. Sure, he could end up coming to you on every call after that, but you'd know how to handle that. I don't see why the possibility that he's going to end up sucking is a reason not to help him on a call where you can.

[Jocko]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

[maven]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

 

Hey, with no runners, play at 1B on the BR: I'll be 45 feet away.

[KenBAZ]

It seems once the BU says,"I saw him miss it", he would not get help. Isn't that different then, "I thougt he got it but recognize that my partner has a better angle and may have helpful information." In the first case I'll own the call. In the latter case I'd ask right away when prompted, "Do you have a tag of the bag?"

I appreciate any feedback on this approach.

[MPLSMatt]

I think you did the right thing in giving him an answer, but I'm not sure that your partner got it right unless he has a VERY specific reason to give the OC about why he didn't see the toe drag.   If I were the DC, I'd have a hard time swallowing the PU making this call over the BU.  Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any reason why the BU would miss this yet it would be clear enough for the PU from 45 feet away see it.  Maybe he's making sure that F1 catches the ball, so he didn't get a good look at the feet?  

[Jocko]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

 

Hey, with no runners, play at 1B on the BR: I'll be 45 feet away. lol toosh

[grayhawk]

If he's sure of this call, then no need to come to you.  Sounds like he had some doubt as to whether or not F1 touched the bag and asked what you saw - sounds good to me.  "The majority of fellow umpires" in your association are way out of line telling you that you should fish in your own pond.  Your partner invited you to his pond, gave you a fishing pole, bait, a chair, a cooler full of beer and pointed out exactly where the fish were.

 

Are they suggesting that you shouldn't have given him what you had?  Just tell him that since he was in A that he needs to eat the call even though you have information that would make the call correct?

[JaxRolo]

 

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

 

Hey, with no runners, play at 1B on the BR: I'll be 45 feet away.

 

I'' be 85'  away!

[StrikeDavis]

@grayhawk

 

They were suggesting I tell him we are going with his call since he is in A he has to eat the call.  The reasoning these umpires gave was that you are only opening a can of worms later in the game where the team that felt they got shafted on any type of call is going to be looking for the other umpire to change. I feel I can manage the game where that will not be an issue.  I also really dislike the idea of getting together only to stick with an incorrect call that can be fixed.  Now both of us look incompetent.    

 

@MPLSMatt

 

The VT Manager came out to talk to me after we called the runner out.  The first words out of his mouth were "How can you see that play better from 60 feet away than he can from 6?"  His parting words were "I hope you get half his game fee since you're making his calls for him."  After the game the BU told me he saw F1 stutter step but never clip the base.  Based on spectator reaction and the coaches reaction he wanted to seek a second opinion.  Unfortunately he did not give me a portion of his game fee.

[BillKen]

Any HP ump worth his salt is going to be up the line here following the runner to the 45' line (or as close to that as he can get).  The only reason to do that, is to be there for help with a swipe tag, pulled foot, or extracurricular contact by one of the players.

 

You did good...especially making the coaches get in the dugout before you discuss the play!

[maven]

@grayhawk

 

They were suggesting I tell him we are going with his call since he is in A he has to eat the call.  The reasoning these umpires gave was that you are only opening a can of worms later in the game where the team that felt they got shafted on any type of call is going to be looking for the other umpire to change. I feel I can manage the game where that will not be an issue.  I also really dislike the idea of getting together only to stick with an incorrect call that can be fixed.  Now both of us look incompetent.    

 

@MPLSMatt

 

The VT Manager came out to talk to me after we called the runner out.  The first words out of his mouth were "How can you see that play better from 60 feet away than he can from 6?"  His parting words were "I hope you get half his game fee since you're making his calls for him."  After the game the BU told me he saw F1 stutter step but never clip the base.  Based on spectator reaction and the coaches reaction he wanted to seek a second opinion.  Unfortunately he did not give me a portion of his game fee.

 

That's old school. Make your call, live and die with it.

 

New school: get it right.

 

You did fine.

 

Regarding this: first of all, your partner should make/change the call, as it was his to make/change.

 

Next, when coach comes to you to discuss, send him to your partner.

 

Then, the answer is: "Coach, he had a different angle that allowed him to see the touch. With that information, I changed my call to get it right."

 

Coach doesn't care if it's right, he cares that it went against him; it's just more difficult to defend that when he's asking you to stick with the wrong call.

[Jocko]

Not sure if I was misunderstood or not, but to clarify, IF you get together, ffs, get it right. I was just saying that I don't see any reason to get together IF I did my job. There's ZERO else for me to be thinking about. It's the only possible play.

[Jocko]

Any HP ump worth his salt is going to be up the line here following the runner to the 45' line (or as close to that as he can get).  The only reason to do that, is to be there for help with a swipe tag, pulled foot, or extracurricular contact by one of the players.

 

You did good...especially making the coaches get in the dugout before you discuss the play!

to be in position to pick up the ball in case of an overthrow, running lane violation, possible BR contact with the batted ball.

Any BU worth his salt is gonna have a better angle and see the entire play. Do we kick em? From time to time, sure. But generally a timing issue and not a pulled foot kinda thing. Not from A. I can't recall ever getting together on a play at 1B with no other baserunners.

[immaculate1976]

When I am the BU no matter if I am in A, B or C I make the call with what I saw. If the coach comes out and ask me to get help with the call or if I think I might have kicked it I will go to HP umpire and ask him if he saw a pulled foot etc. If he is 100% sure I will reverse it no problem we got it right that is all that matters. 

[Replacematt]

When I am the BU no matter if I am in A, B or C I make the call with what I saw. If the coach comes out and ask me to get help with the call or if I think I might have kicked it I will go to HP umpire and ask him if he saw a pulled foot etc. If he is 100% sure I will reverse it no problem we got it right that is all that matters. 

 

Don't get help just because a coach asks. If you feel you have a reason to get help, get it, but a coach's request is not a reason. They'll mommy-and-daddy your calls all day if they know there's a chance they'll get one.

[UmpJeff]

Exactly, Maven!

 

I'm far enough up the line and close enough to the bag to see what's going on with the touches.

[Specks]

What basis did the manager request your partner to get help? Your partner said he missed the bag, you said he didn't, that's not additional information that's a different opinion. Who's to say he wasn't right the first time. From "A" I can't really invision a situation where I'm going for help. Anything that happens I can take a read lean/step and see everything. Yes we want to get the call right but that's why I'm positioned where I am. Unless the manager has something other than "can you get help" I will NEVER ask my partner if he has a different opinion. Getting help is for when the manager (or I) thinks I have a rule wrong/ getting blocked out etc. Not much is going to happen at 1st like that.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

Lucky me... something strange had to happen.

[Jocko]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

Lucky me... something strange had to happen.I wasn't in A. Fkr.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

 

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

Lucky me... something strange had to happen. I wasn't in A. Fkr.

 

Fkr ? Wow... Is that anyway to talk to the guy who saved you from the partner you went toe-to-toe with ????   

[Jocko]

Personally, I'm not going to my partner if I'm BU from A unless something VERY strange happens. I'm 5' away, hes 90' away. Aint happening.

As for how this meeting of the minds went, this is textbook.

Lucky me... something strange had to happen. I wasn't in A. Fkr.

Fkr ? Wow... Is that anyway to talk to the guy who saved you from the partner you went toe-to-toe with ????    oh THAT! Yeah. Thanks for bringing it up. Grrrrr :hopmad:

[noumpere]

When I am the BU no matter if I am in A, B or C I make the call with what I saw. If the coach comes out and ask me to get help with the call or if I think I might have kicked it I will go to HP umpire and ask him if he saw a pulled foot etc. If he is 100% sure I will reverse it no problem we got it right that is all that matters. 

You may as well short cut the process and just ask everytime.  Or, even better -- just have PU make all the calls.

[umpire_scott]

What basis did the manager request your partner to get help? Your partner said he missed the bag, you said he didn't, that's not additional information that's a different opinion. Who's to say he wasn't right the first time. From "A" I can't really invision a situation where I'm going for help. Anything that happens I can take a read lean/step and see everything. Yes we want to get the call right but that's why I'm positioned where I am. Unless the manager has something other than "can you get help" I will NEVER ask my partner if he has a different opinion. Getting help is for when the manager (or I) thinks I have a rule wrong/ getting blocked out etc. Not much is going to happen at 1st like that.

 

When it is as the OP described where he dragged his foot and clipped the front edge I would say that is a little strange and could possibly have thrown his partner off.  We are used to looking at certain things as we've learned through mechanics training and any slight deviation from that could cause us to not process the play accurately.  I'm not saying every deviation causes a problem just that you never know when it might. Sometimes those slightly strange variations are easier to see from further away.  I know I've made calls before where I wasn't sure, but made the call I thought was the right one because something threw me off.  Based on the OP's later post where his partner said that fan and coach reaction caused him to seek a second opinion it sounds like that was the case.  As long as he really was unsure to begin with and did not let fan/coach reaction change his mind, I've got no problem with it.