"Explaining" balls

Mr Ump · July 12, 2014

I don't call location and rarely get the where was that at question. Most coaches can figure out that I am a good ball strike ump. I do say borderlines to the catcher sometimes. Seems to work for me.

Dannytheman · July 12, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch. I just call ball and stay down an extended period.

HC:"Blue, Blue, where was that?"

PU: "Ball."

HC: "Not what, where?"

PU: "Ball"

HC: "Oh"

grayhawk · July 12, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.

In my experience, this has never once been the case.

BigUmpire · July 12, 2014

Quietly talk to the catcher IF needed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MidAmUmp · July 13, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.

In my experience, this has never once been the case.

Me either. I've actually found the opposite to be true.

Magic · July 13, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.
In my experience, this has never once been the case.
Me either. I've actually found the opposite to be true.

Same here.

Dannytheman · July 14, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.

In my experience, this has never once been the case.

"No. I am not going to discuss the strike zone with a coach before, during, or after the game. PERIOD." grayhawk.

IMHO, if you are discussing Ball location you are telling a manager your Strike location that YOU said you would never do.

Now we can disagree, but mentioning your Ball locations when asked, is just stating the "not a strike location!" So I choose not to discuss Balls and Strikes with Managers, and call Ball and Call Strike.

RichMSN · July 14, 2014

I'll use "Ball Outside" or "Ball Inside" on really close ones. Shrug. Do what you want. Hasn't hurt me in the slightest.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

grayhawk · July 14, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.
In my experience, this has never once been the case.
"No. I am not going to discuss the strike zone with a coach before, during, or after the game. PERIOD." grayhawk.
IMHO, if you are discussing Ball location you are telling a manager your Strike location that YOU said you would never do.
Now we can disagree, but mentioning your Ball locations when asked, is just stating the "not a strike location!" So I choose not to discuss Balls and Strikes with Managers, and call Ball and Call Strike.

I answer the question before it gets asked. As a result, coaches don't wonder and get frustrated. It works extremely well in HS ball.

Giving in/out on close pitches isn't "discussing my zone" and your pathetic attempt to use one of my other posts to try to prove your point is insulting. Umpires that work levels I work (and levels far above) agreed with my opinion on this, so that's plenty good for me.

Thunderheads · July 14, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch. I just call ball and stay down an extended period.

HC:"Blue, Blue, where was that?"

PU: "Ball."

HC: "Not what, where?"

PU: "Ball"

HC: "Oh"

^^^^^^^^^^^^reda$$^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

that's how that comes across, IMHO, ........YMMV

umpstu · July 15, 2014

You can talk to a coach in between innings.
Take your lineup card out and tell the coach that you are seeing those pitches outside or inside. Most do not know you are talking about the strike zone.
He will disagree. You have given him information that can help him make an adjustment. I never answer the question," where is that pitch".
It is not a question. It is a statement.
How about a catcher turning around on you? How do you handle it ?

Handling the catcher turning around is one of the things I try and stop when I step in behind him to watch some warm up pitches. I'll let him know that if he disagrees with a ball/strike call to just throw the ball back to the pitcher and then ask me. I tell him that he shouldn't turn his head and that he won't have to ask where that was very often. Call strikes.

Dannytheman · July 16, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.

In my experience, this has never once been the case.

"No. I am not going to discuss the strike zone with a coach before, during, or after the game. PERIOD." grayhawk.
IMHO, if you are discussing Ball location you are telling a manager your Strike location that YOU said you would never do.
Now we can disagree, but mentioning your Ball locations when asked, is just stating the "not a strike location!" So I choose not to discuss Balls and Strikes with Managers, and call Ball and Call Strike.

I answer the question before it gets asked. As a result, coaches don't wonder and get frustrated. It works extremely well in HS ball.
Giving in/out on close pitches isn't "discussing my zone" and your pathetic attempt to use one of my other posts to try to prove your point is insulting. Umpires that work levels I work (and levels far above) agreed with my opinion on this, so that's plenty good for me.

Sorry you felt I was being pathetic. I was only pointing to the irony in your positions. I choose not to explain my zone. In that we agree. You leave more wiggle room. I am not looking for anyone to agree with me, I am also not known on the field as a red a$$. I call a good game, I hustle my ass off and I do it all for free. I enjoy the feedback, I read it all, I just don't happen to agree.

As BigUmp mentions, I might mention to the catcher to pass along.

Magic · July 16, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.
In my experience, this has never once been the case.
"No. I am not going to discuss the strike zone with a coach before, during, or after the game. PERIOD." grayhawk.
IMHO, if you are discussing Ball location you are telling a manager your Strike location that YOU said you would never do.
Now we can disagree, but mentioning your Ball locations when asked, is just stating the "not a strike location!" So I choose not to discuss Balls and Strikes with Managers, and call Ball and Call Strike.
I answer the question before it gets asked. As a result, coaches don't wonder and get frustrated. It works extremely well in HS ball.
Giving in/out on close pitches isn't "discussing my zone" and your pathetic attempt to use one of my other posts to try to prove your point is insulting. Umpires that work levels I work (and levels far above) agreed with my opinion on this, so that's plenty good for me.
Sorry you felt I was being pathetic. I was only pointing to the irony in your positions. I choose not to explain my zone. In that we agree. You leave more wiggle room. I am not looking for anyone to agree with me, I am also not known on the field as a red a$$. I call a good game, I hustle my ass off and I do it all for free. I enjoy the feedback, I read it all, I just don't happen to agree.
As BigUmp mentions, I might mention to the catcher to pass along.

And there is the biggest difference. Grayhawk, myself and probably quite quite a few others in this board are umpiring High School and College baseball. The first time one of those coaches asks me where a pitch is and I say "ball"! I can guarantee you World War 3 is going to follow, with me having to toss the Head Coach. And just for the record saying Ball inside or Ball outside is not even close to, "My Strike zone is armpits to shins. I will give your pitcher 2 balls outside and 1 inside. And the first time you don't call an armpit strike all hell breaks loose. No Thank You. Like I have said before, I do say Ball inside or Ball outside. But usually only on a 1-2 count or a 2-2 count when it just misses. When i feel a coach really wanted that pitch. I let him know where i had it. I don't say it on a 2-0 count. It is personal preference. But to say that is discussing my strike zone? Sorry Danny, you swung and missed on this one.

DVA7130 · July 17, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch. I just call ball and stay down an extended period.

HC:"Blue, Blue, where was that?"
PU: "Ball."
HC: "Not what, where?"
PU: "Ball"
HC: "Oh"

^^^^^^^^^^^^reda$$^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

that's how that comes across, IMHO, ........YMMV

Nah.

If you want to go into that territory, I recommend:

Where did that miss? -> "The strikezone".

Where was that? -> "The Ballzone".

Dannytheman · July 18, 2014

I think by calling location even once, you open up for more questions on every pitch.

In my experience, this has never once been the case.

"No. I am not going to discuss the strike zone with a coach before, during, or after the game. PERIOD." grayhawk.
IMHO, if you are discussing Ball location you are telling a manager your Strike location that YOU said you would never do.
Now we can disagree, but mentioning your Ball locations when asked, is just stating the "not a strike location!" So I choose not to discuss Balls and Strikes with Managers, and call Ball and Call Strike.

I answer the question before it gets asked. As a result, coaches don't wonder and get frustrated. It works extremely well in HS ball.
Giving in/out on close pitches isn't "discussing my zone" and your pathetic attempt to use one of my other posts to try to prove your point is insulting. Umpires that work levels I work (and levels far above) agreed with my opinion on this, so that's plenty good for me.

Sorry you felt I was being pathetic. I was only pointing to the irony in your positions. I choose not to explain my zone. In that we agree. You leave more wiggle room. I am not looking for anyone to agree with me, I am also not known on the field as a red a$$. I call a good game, I hustle my ass off and I do it all for free. I enjoy the feedback, I read it all, I just don't happen to agree.
As BigUmp mentions, I might mention to the catcher to pass along.

And there is the biggest difference. Grayhawk, myself and probably quite quite a few others in this board are umpiring High School and College baseball. The first time one of those coaches asks me where a pitch is and I say "ball"! I can guarantee you World War 3 is going to follow, with me having to toss the Head Coach. And just for the record saying Ball inside or Ball outside is not even close to, "My Strike zone is armpits to shins. I will give your pitcher 2 balls outside and 1 inside. And the first time you don't call an armpit strike all hell breaks loose. No Thank You. Like I have said before, I do say Ball inside or Ball outside. But usually only on a 1-2 count or a 2-2 count when it just misses. When i feel a coach really wanted that pitch. I let him know where i had it. I don't say it on a 2-0 count. It is personal preference. But to say that is discussing my strike zone? Sorry Danny, you swung and missed on this one.

I worked PIAA for 13 years, but thanks, I get it. Been doing this for over 30 years now. As I said, I have my way. Not preaching.

umpire_scott · July 18, 2014

The one problem I have with the practice of indicating location is that some of the same umpires that advocate that practice also say they never say high or low because the coaches can see that themselves. So if a ball is just high enough or just low enough to miss your zone, but it's over the plate you say nothing. And then what if the coach asks? Do you not tell him because it could invite argument? I have worked with guys that called location on every "ball" that was not obvious, including high and low. That practice I can understand more. But it seems that only calling "in" or "out" would lead to a coach to question a ball that was close and clearly not "in" or "out".

I never offer location. That is just my personal preference because I think that on the ones where I don't offer it it seems odd to the coaches. And if they ask where it was I tell them exactly what I had. At the end of the day my zone is my zone. If the coach sees it and thinks it wasn't high, but I did, so be it. He needs to accept that he's not going to get every borderline call. I feel like giving location can also make it look like you are justifying your call rather than giving information. But that is just me. Everyone should do what they want based on what they are comfortable with and what works personally for them.

grayhawk · July 18, 2014

But it seems that only calling "in" or "out" would lead to a coach to question a ball that was close and clearly not "in" or "out".

There is no such thing as "clearly not" in or out on a close pitch from where the coaches are sitting. Ever had a pitch come in belt high that was 8 inches inside that the coaches and players in the defensive dugout thought was down broadway? Happens all the time. "Ball, that's in" simply prevents them from then asking where it missed. I read a crap ton of stories on this forum (usually in ejections) about coaches getting chippy as hell about balls and strikes. This happens for three key reasons (or a combination of them):

1. The people posting these stories are not good ball/strike umpires

2. They don't manage their games properly (including how they handle/prevent these location questions)

3. The coaches are looking for a fight

However, I suspect that most of the problems stem from 2, rather than 1 or 3.

Again, I have no issue whatsoever if you are anyone else prefers not to use this mechanic. It's not for everyone. My issue is with folks (not you) telling others that they absolutely should NOT do this.

umpire_scott · July 18, 2014

But it seems that only calling "in" or "out" would lead to a coach to question a ball that was close and clearly not "in" or "out".

There is no such thing as "clearly not" in or out on a close pitch from where the coaches are sitting. Ever had a pitch come in belt high that was 8 inches inside that the coaches and players in the defensive dugout thought was down broadway? Happens all the time. "Ball, that's in" simply prevents them from then asking where it missed. I read a crap ton of stories on this forum (usually in ejections) about coaches getting chippy as hell about balls and strikes. This happens for three key reasons (or a combination of them):

1. The people posting these stories are not good ball/strike umpires

2. They don't manage their games properly (including how they handle/prevent these location questions)

3. The coaches are looking for a fight

However, I suspect that most of the problems stem from 2, rather than 1 or 3.

Again, I have no issue whatsoever if you are anyone else prefers not to use this mechanic. It's not for everyone. My issue is with folks (not you) telling others that they absolutely should NOT do this.

Agreed. The point I was making is on the pitch that was right down the middle but a little high or little for you to get a strike. You know if was neither in nor out. So I presume you would say nothing. Then if the coach asks "where was that" what would you say. I realize he can't see in or out, but his catcher sure can. Don't you look foolish saying it was in or out in that case?

grayhawk · July 18, 2014

But it seems that only calling "in" or "out" would lead to a coach to question a ball that was close and clearly not "in" or "out".

There is no such thing as "clearly not" in or out on a close pitch from where the coaches are sitting. Ever had a pitch come in belt high that was 8 inches inside that the coaches and players in the defensive dugout thought was down broadway? Happens all the time. "Ball, that's in" simply prevents them from then asking where it missed. I read a crap ton of stories on this forum (usually in ejections) about coaches getting chippy as hell about balls and strikes. This happens for three key reasons (or a combination of them):

1. The people posting these stories are not good ball/strike umpires

2. They don't manage their games properly (including how they handle/prevent these location questions)

3. The coaches are looking for a fight

However, I suspect that most of the problems stem from 2, rather than 1 or 3.

Again, I have no issue whatsoever if you are anyone else prefers not to use this mechanic. It's not for everyone. My issue is with folks (not you) telling others that they absolutely should NOT do this.

Agreed. The point I was making is on the pitch that was right down the middle but a little high or little for you to get a strike. You know if was neither in nor out. So I presume you would say nothing. Then if the coach asks "where was that" what would you say. I realize he can't see in or out, but his catcher sure can. Don't you look foolish saying it was in or out in that case?

I would probably say, "I had it up." and leave it at that. But then, I am MUCH more likely to hear "not yours" on that pitch because I am more likely to strike that pitch than ball it. I try to get all the borderline high and low pitches I can. If I judge the pitch was up and ball it, I hear "work down" or "throw downhill" MUCH more than "where was that?"

My favorite from my game on Tuesday from the OC (after I called a borderline high strike where the batter squatted down), "Steve, he's only 5'1." Keep in mind it was a relaxed HS summer game.

umpire_scott · July 18, 2014

But it seems that only calling "in" or "out" would lead to a coach to question a ball that was close and clearly not "in" or "out".

There is no such thing as "clearly not" in or out on a close pitch from where the coaches are sitting. Ever had a pitch come in belt high that was 8 inches inside that the coaches and players in the defensive dugout thought was down broadway? Happens all the time. "Ball, that's in" simply prevents them from then asking where it missed. I read a crap ton of stories on this forum (usually in ejections) about coaches getting chippy as hell about balls and strikes. This happens for three key reasons (or a combination of them):

1. The people posting these stories are not good ball/strike umpires

2. They don't manage their games properly (including how they handle/prevent these location questions)

3. The coaches are looking for a fight

However, I suspect that most of the problems stem from 2, rather than 1 or 3.

Again, I have no issue whatsoever if you are anyone else prefers not to use this mechanic. It's not for everyone. My issue is with folks (not you) telling others that they absolutely should NOT do this.

Agreed. The point I was making is on the pitch that was right down the middle but a little high or little for you to get a strike. You know if was neither in nor out. So I presume you would say nothing. Then if the coach asks "where was that" what would you say. I realize he can't see in or out, but his catcher sure can. Don't you look foolish saying it was in or out in that case?

I would probably say, "I had it up." and leave it at that. But then, I am MUCH more likely to hear "not yours" on that pitch because I am more likely to strike that pitch than ball it. I try to get all the borderline high and low pitches I can. If I judge the pitch was up and ball it, I hear "work down" or "throw downhill" MUCH more than "where was that?"

My favorite from my game on Tuesday from the OC (after I called a borderline high strike where the batter squatted down), "Steve, he's only 5'1." Keep in mind it was a relaxed HS summer game.

My favorite is the token "that wasn't you" on a backwards K. Umm yes it was. You can't tell a kid "expand your zone" with two strikes and then when he looks at a bordeline pitch tell him "that wasn't you". Of course the "that wasn't you" more often comes from the kids mom that has heard the phrase over and doesn't know the appropriate time to use it. NEVER use it when a kid looks at strike 3.

FleasOf1000Camels · July 29, 2014

For me, this all starts with establishing a relationship with the catcher right from the beginning. I make a point to introduce myself and get the catcher's name.

I call strikes LOUD and CLEAR. Everybody in the park hears me.

If a ball is obvious, I just say BALL...still loud enough to be heard on the infield.

If a ball is close, I say BALL in that same outdoor voice, then softly say "That's down", or "that's out"..whatever, just loud enough for F2 and maybe the batter to hear.

I NEVER respond to the "where was that?" question from the dugout. When that question comes, I quietly say to the catcher "Tyler, your coach wants to know where that one was." or "Josh, your coach has a question for you." 9 times out of 10, that solves the issue for the rest of the day. The smarter catchers figure it out right away, others might have to be nudged with the knee once or twice.

umpire_scott · July 30, 2014

For me, this all starts with establishing a relationship with the catcher right from the beginning. I make a point to introduce myself and get the catcher's name.

I call strikes LOUD and CLEAR. Everybody in the park hears me.

If a ball is obvious, I just say BALL...still loud enough to be heard on the infield.

If a ball is close, I say BALL in that same outdoor voice, then softly say "That's down", or "that's out"..whatever, just loud enough for F2 and maybe the batter to hear.

I NEVER respond to the "where was that?" question from the dugout. When that question comes, I quietly say to the catcher "Tyler, your coach wants to know where that one was." or "Josh, your coach has a question for you." 9 times out of 10, that solves the issue for the rest of the day. The smarter catchers figure it out right away, others might have to be nudged with the knee once or twice.

So what would you say to the F2 that throws you under the bus? I had a ball 4 inches inside. I had just spoke to the coach about arguing balls and strikes. So the coach asks his F2 where the pitch was . I quietly say "catch help me out and tell him where that pitch was". He shrugs his shoulder to his coach and says to me "looked right on the black to me".

BaltimoreUmpire · July 30, 2014

I say "ball low" "ball inside" etc because i do 10u and 12u at those ages the pitches are still learning and if the coach has an idea of where his pitchers are missing maybe he can figure out if something is mechanically wrong with his pitcher which means more strikes, which is a good thing, at higher levels i wouldn't do this the pitchers know how to pitch so its useless, so really it depends on what level your doing

FleasOf1000Camels · July 31, 2014

@umpire_scott

What you described can ONLY happen if you've failed to establish a good working relationship with F2.

That can only be a result of two things:

1. you're not calling a good game...solution: get better

2. F2 is an arrogant dipstick...solution: find some creative way to punish him...I'll leave those details to your imagination

Seriously, I've only had this happen once...F2 said "HE said it was outside." I called time and swept the plate (which didn't need it). I quietly said "Johnny, do you like apples" yes, why? "pull that crap again and your zone will be about the size of one."

BigUmpire · July 31, 2014

@umpire_scott

What you described can ONLY happen if you've failed to establish a good working relationship with F2.

That can only be a result of two things:

1. you're not calling a good game...solution: get better

2. F2 is an arrogant dipstick...solution: find some creative way to punish him...I'll leave those details to your imagination

Seriously, I've only had this happen once...F2 said "HE said it was outside." I called time and swept the plate (which didn't need it). I quietly said "Johnny, do you like apples" yes, why? "pull that crap again and your zone will be about the size of one."

Its you and F2.

Great advice.

"Explaining" balls

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

maven

Replacematt

MidAmUmp