dropped third strike and getting help

[umpire_scott]

Had the following situation occur in 13U travel ball tournament yesterday: 

 

Partner on the dish, I'm in C.  R2 and R3, 1 out.  Batter swings and misses on strike 3,  Pitch is in the dirt and it's not clear whether catcher caught it cleanly.  I thought it was trapped, but not positive.  BR breaks for first.  My partner gives his normal point with no verbal for the swinging strike.  Then points to me.  I was caught off guard a little as I didn't have a very good look at it.  I shook my head and gave a safe signal indicating I did not have a catch.  F2 comes up holding the ball up as if he caught it cleanly and never throws to first. So runner is safe on first.

 

DC coach asks to talk to my partner who calls me over.  DC says that when my partner pointed for the swinging strike this indicated to his catcher that the ball had been caught cleanly.  My partner said "I was behind your catcher so he couldn't see my non-verbal signal anyway".  

 

#1 - I've never gone to my partner on a ball in the dirt when I'm on the dish.  To me that call needs to happen immediately.  I'm calling it "catch" or "no catch" based on what I see.  If I didn't get a good look and dirt flies up it's probably "no catch".

 

#2 - What mechanic do you use to avoid this confusion.  I use a hammer for my strikes, which is similar to the "out" mechanic.  So I don't want any confusion to arise on dropped third strikes.

[grayhawk]

I pregame with my parter that if the BU sees it, he should immediately give a fist for catch or an open hand for no catch. If the PU is blocked out and doesn't see it, he should look up to see if his partner is giving one of these signals. If not, then PU must decide on the call and stick with it. Some give a verbal "no catch" and some do not.

In no case should PU ever point to his partner on a play like this.

[Thunderheads]

I pregame with my parter that if the BU sees it, he should immediately give a fist for catch or an open hand for no catch. If the PU is blocked out and doesn't see it, he should look up to see if his partner is giving one of these signals. If not, then PU must decide on the call and stick with it. Some give a verbal "no catch" and some do not.

In no case should PU ever point to his partner on a play like this.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[CricketChapman]

#1 - I've never gone to my partner on a ball in the dirt when I'm on the dish.  To me that call needs to happen immediately.  I'm calling it "catch" or "no catch" based on what I see.  If I didn't get a good look and dirt flies up it's probably "no catch".

 

#2 - What mechanic do you use to avoid this confusion.  I use a hammer for my strikes, which is similar to the "out" mechanic.  So I don't want any confusion to arise on dropped third strikes.

To answer #2:  First, right arm extended, index finger pointing, "That's a swing!" or "He swung!"  Then, standard "safe" mechanic, "No catch!"  This has been thoroughly discussed here:  http://umpire-empire... third strike

To answer #1:  As greyhawk said, this is usually covered in pre-game.  Typical signals given by BU are closed fist down and slightly in front of the body, knuckles facing PU, for a catch; open hand down and slightly in front of the body, with open palm facing PU, for a no-catch.  These signals should be visible enough for PU to see them, but not so visible as to confuse any player.

[SteveJ]

Also, never assume anything!   F2's glove hitting the dirt as he was making the catch could have caused dirt to fly up. If you aren't sure that the ball hit the dirt then it didn't.

[JRobinson]

Grayhawk nailed it with the open and closed hand. As far as the mechanic goes, you indeed point with your right hand and your arm fully extended while dropping towards the point of the plate. Once BR leaves the area and you are clear of the catcher, you then will take a few steps to be first base line extended to view a potential interference, swipe tag, or pulled foot.

[noumpere]

I agree with the partner giving a signal, but PU also needs to be more clear as to whether he ends up having a catch or not..

[wingman3110]

Also, never assume anything!   F2's glove hitting the dirt as he was making the catch could have caused dirt to fly up. If you aren't sure that the ball hit the dirt then it didn't.

 

What if you aren't sure that he caught it?

[Jocko]

Also, never assume anything!   F2's glove hitting the dirt as he was making the catch could have caused dirt to fly up. If you aren't sure that the ball hit the dirt then it didn't.

 

What if you aren't sure that he caught it?if you're not sure that he didn't, then he did.

[JRobinson]

I agree with the partner giving a signal, but PU also needs to be more clear as to whether he ends up having a catch or not..

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

[Jocko]

Swinging 3rd strike get a hammered out. Uncaught 3rd strike gets a verbal "Strike 3 No Catch" with standard safe signal. Swinging 3rd strike is obvious. Called 3rd strike gets a Jim Joyce-esque verbal

[basejester]

 Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

 

 

I think "No Catch" is more clear.  What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

[LMSANS]

Had a very similar situation this weekend in an Over 30 game (why, Oh why?).  Low pitch, swing.  PU calls the batter out on the catch.  OC asks if he can get help.  He comes out and I tell him I couldn't tell for sure.  Some adult whining ( ), but we moved on.  I didn't give a signal because I wasn't sure.  If I was sure, I would do the fist open hand thing.

[Replacematt]

Had a very similar situation this weekend in an Over 30 game (why, Oh why?).  Low pitch, swing.  PU calls the batter out on the catch.  OC asks if he can get help.  He comes out and I tell him I couldn't tell for sure.  Some adult whining ( ), but we moved on.  I didn't give a signal because I wasn't sure.  If I was sure, I would do the fist open hand thing.

 

Do something, even if you aren't sure. A decision has to be made, and quickly.

[SteveJ]

 

 Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

 

 

I think "No Catch" is more clear.  What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

 

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike.  I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

[noumpere]

 

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. 

 

 

Time to improve by giving it (unless it's obvious like the ball going to the backstop or something).

[maven]

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike.  I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

[grayhawk]

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike. I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

Agreed, which is why I find our association's instructional chairman's direction for "no verbal" on this play to be unwise.

[JRobinson]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

 

I think "No Catch" is more clear.  What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

"Gotta get him!" Means exactly that. The catcher either needs to tag him, or throw him out.

The main thing is to give the visual mechanic so everyone can see. If the batter or catcher are clueless with your mechanic, or unaware of the count, that's their issue.

Similar to the infield fly (mechanic and verbal for the runners), giving a verbal on the dropped third strike is providing a curtisey to the defensive team of what needs to be done to retire the BR.

[Mike Prince]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

"Gotta get him!" Means exactly that. The catcher either needs to tag him, or throw him out.

The main thing is to give the visual mechanic so everyone can see. If the batter or catcher are clueless with your mechanic, or unaware of the count, that's their issue.

Similar to the infield fly (mechanic and verbal for the runners), giving a verbal on the dropped third strike is providing a curtisey to the defensive team of what needs to be done to retire the BR.

IMO That phrase can be interpreted as coaching F2 and is not what most players are expecting to hear. Inventing your own mechanic usually backfires.

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[JRobinson]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"? "Gotta get him!" Means exactly that. The catcher either needs to tag him, or throw him out.

The main thing is to give the visual mechanic so everyone can see. If the batter or catcher are clueless with your mechanic, or unaware of the count, that's their issue.

Similar to the infield fly (mechanic and verbal for the runners), giving a verbal on the dropped third strike is providing a curtisey to the defensive team of what needs to be done to retire the BR.IMO That phrase can be interpreted as coaching F2 and is not what most players are expecting to hear. Inventing your own mechanic usually backfires.

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I understand what you mean and I respect it. However, keeping the integrity of the game is why we do what we do. I personally don't believe that any player at any level would interpret such phrase as coaching.

But as stated in a previous post, the visual mechanic is the most important thing to do in this circumstance.

[Mike Prince]

Agreed here.

I usually say "He's got it! He's got it!" (Swinging strike three mechanic)

Or...

"Gotta get him! Gotta get him!" (Pointing with the right arm fully extended).

I think "No Catch" is more clear. What's the merit behind "Gotta get him!"?

"Gotta get him!" Means exactly that. The catcher either needs to tag him, or throw him out.

The main thing is to give the visual mechanic so everyone can see. If the batter or catcher are clueless with your mechanic, or unaware of the count, that's their issue.

Similar to the infield fly (mechanic and verbal for the runners), giving a verbal on the dropped third strike is providing a curtisey to the defensive team of what needs to be done to retire the BR.

IMO That phrase can be interpreted as coaching F2 and is not what most players are expecting to hear. Inventing your own mechanic usually backfires.

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I understand what you mean and I respect it. However, keeping the integrity of the game is why we do what we do. I personally don't believe that any player at any level would interpret such phrase as coaching.

But as stated in a previous post, the visual mechanic is the most important thing to do in this circumstance.

A player may not but the offensive coach could. Again, not the standard verbal but if it works for you it's better than saying nothing at all.

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[JRobinson]

A player may not but the offensive coach could. Again, not the standard verbal but if it works for you it's better than saying nothing at all.

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The standard verbal is actually no verbal. But when you tell the catcher "you gotta get him!" Or a similar phrase, you're simply telling him that he has to retire the batter due to the fact he didn't catch the baseball.

[CricketChapman]

We were directed to this post because our school mechanics for an uncaught third strike was discussed. Though our input here is requested less now, we would still like to provide you the how and why of this mechanic from our perspective. Hopefully you will find use of it if you choose to apply it to your games. The following is the mechanics preferred through our professional course:

 

With two outs, or with first base unoccupied, the batter becomes a runner and may advance to first base if his third strike is uncaught. If he is not allowed to advance, the normal third strike mechanic is all that is necessary. However, if one of the conditions occurs that allow him to advance on the uncaught third strike, the umpire should indicate the third strike by pointing with his right hand and arm out to the side using no voice. This signal prevents confusion that a standard strike mechanic may cause if players believe you are instead calling the batter out. Then, depending on what occurs next, the following shall apply:

• If the pitch gets away from the catcher a considerable distance where it is obvious to everyone that the ball was not caught, there is no need for any further mechanic or voice.
• If the pitch is short-hopped by the catcher, and the batter-runner attempts to advance to first base without a tag attempt, use the voice and signal for your no catch mechanic.
• If the batter begins to advance and a tag attempt is misses, use the voice and signal for your no tag mechanic.
• If the batter is immediately tagged, use the voice and signal for your out mechanic.

Using good timing is essential when utilizing these mechanics in order to avoid confusion. Do not signal “No catch!†or “No tag!†immediately, just to have the catcher apply a tag successfully. Instead of three or four rushed mechanics, allow the play to develop and only make the mechanics necessary.

 

 

 

The standard verbal is actually no verbal. But when you tell the catcher "you gotta get him!" Or a similar phrase, you're simply telling him that he has to retire the batter due to the fact he didn't catch the baseball.

 

How do you reconcile your position with that of Wendelstedt's?

It seems no verbal is not necessarily "THE standard," but is one of a few standard mechanics utilized depending on the circumstances.  If verbal is used, "No catch!" is the prose suggested.

[SteveJ]

 

I never give a verbal "no catch" on a dropped 3rd strike.  I indicate it with a safe signal. I've worked with guys who give a half safe signal (just using one arm).

The problem with your mechanic is that the 2 people who most need the information you're providing cannot see you. The verbal is crucial to the BR and F2.

 

Hopefully someone in the dugout is paying attention because "no catch & catch" can sound a lot alike in the excitement of the moment.  That's why we don't say "fair" when there's a ball down the line, it can be heard as foul, we just point fair.

 

And as far as saying things like "Gotta get him, gotta get him", I have never heard any umpire say that.  The fewer words said by the umpire's during the game the better.