Age

[JohnT]

As I am preparing for the upcoming season, I have begin to wonder about all the past opportunities I have had to eject, and haven't. Probably the most frequent opportunities, is age. I hear couple times a year, "Listen kid, your 17 and im 35, you don't tell me what to do!"

I am assuming bringing up age like that would be grounds for an EJ?

[Umpire in Chief]

I would agree. Age is irrelevant as an umpire. On the field you are the authority. That statement seems like it's intent is to intimidate AND it is also personal.

When they get personal, they have to go. Never tolerate any "you" statements or anything else which is directed to yourself. THey can debate calls, judgements, and the like but they can't get personal.

[jim knight]

Bringing up your age alone may not be enough... that being said I agree with Warren that if a coach or player is using anything to intimadate... you need to put a stop to it / note: you might be able to stop it without an EJ.

Be sure to get a warning in before you run them.

[Dragon29]

Be sure to get a warning in before you run them.

Possibly - but, be certain the warning is non-specific.

"That's enough, Coach"

as opposed to

"Bring up my age again and you're gone"

[jim knight]

Good point... Dragon / Try not to draw a line in the sand...

[BlueInVA]

Good point... Dragon / Try not to draw a line in the sand...

But if it's been drawn, extend it to the gate and put an arrow on the end of it. ---> C'Ya

(Just Kidding)

[kylejt]

I hear couple times a year, "Listen kid, your 17 and im 35, you don't tell me what to do!"

I am assuming bringing up age like that would be grounds for an EJ?

I guess it depends on what you told him to do. I'd say 95% of the time, that's an EJ.

Putting on a uniform doesn't automatically get you respect. You have to earn it. If some knucklehead is saying "you don't tell me what to do!", you don't have their respect. Yet.

I teach the classic "That's enough!" with the hand up, from a distance, and "That'll do" for up close conversations. It works for the four foot nothin' 12 year olds I have working 9-11 year old games.

Respect starts when you walk on the field. If you have no reputation, it starts with your uniform. If you look sharp, the old saying goes you'll cruise by the first three innings. Dress like a slob, and they'll be on you right away.

Lots of managers like find your limits by pushing your buttons. "COME ON!", "HOW IS THAT A STRIKE!?" etc. That's when "That's enough" needs to be employed early enough to set the tone.

What's really key is have your Umpire in Chief set the tone for the league. They have let the managers know what is, and what isn't acceptable, and the consequences for stepping over the line. He also needs to let them know that umpires are umpires, no matter the size or age. Everyone needs to be on the same page.

[JohnT]

The situation I remember most was an 11u game during fall ball. The whole coaching staff was a bunch of jerks, and ended up getting kicked out of the league at the end. (Not for this specific incident, just everything added up until something broke the camel's back.)

The manager came out to argue balls and strikes with the home plate umpire. (Yea, thats a no-no.) So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager. I cut off the coaches, told them to go back to their dugouts, and to "not start." Well, the one smart mouth said, "Listen kid, Im 35, and your 16. Don't tell me to not start." I ignored as I kept shoo-ing them back to their dugout. When they got to the dugout, the same smart mouth said, "Ok we are here, now get back to your position." to which I replied, "You don't need to be telling me what to do!" He then took my name and number blah blah blah.

The manager ended up getting EJ by the PU for arguing balls and strikes.

Poorly handled on my part? I think so. The coach brought the conversation to a personal level and I followed. But, I have learned my lesson.

[BT_Blue]

Yeh, telling you to get back to your position is a personal attack and should be followed by the coach (this is an assistant who gets ZERO latitude) taking his position in his car for the rest of the game cause it sure as heck wont be on the field anymore.

[mstaylor]

In this case, he has to go. He probably needed to go for the age crack but there you could have said something to the effect that that's enough and to go to the dugout. Anything else after the That's enough is an invitation to leave.

I realize how intimitating it can be for a teenager to tell an adult to go home. I started at seventeen myself and fought that battle.

I got by it one night in a LL game by unejecting a manager that I had been having problems with. I made an unusual call at second, don't remember what. The manager came out and asked to discuss it. Normally the rule was to go to the foul line for discussions but I invited him to meet me halfway. He asked, I explained, he understood and went to the dugout, all very quiet and straightforward. After the inning I saw the manager standing down the line outside the fence. I asked what he was doing. He said he had been ejected for going on the field to discuss the call. I asked who threw him and he said the VP. I told him the VP couldn't do that, only the umpires could. I told him to get in the dugout and if the VP said anything to see me and I would explain he had no say in a game I was umpiring. After that the chirping greatly decreased.

[kylejt]

So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager....

That's where you have to have your partner's back. They can't be allowed out of the dugout. A warning, "Guys, back in the dugout please", and your line is drawn,and you've set their limits. If they want to eject themselves, you can help them out.

Body language is critical too. Hands behind your back gives a signal that you're willing to talk. Arms folded across your chest says you mean business. Mean business in this situation.

[UmpJM]

JohnT,

When the Assistant Coach failed to comply with your instruction to return to his dugout and came back with the "You don't tell me what to do" comment, I would have ejected him immediately.

I probably would not have made the "don't start" comment. I also would not have made the "You don't need to be telling me what to do" comment. While it's certainly true, some things are better left unsaid.

My comments may seem critical, but I'm actually pretty impressed with how you handled this overall. You did a number of things right here. You kept the coaches from "ganging up" on your partner, you got them to, perhaps grudgingly, comply with your instructions, you didn't "escalate" things, and it sounds like you managed to keep your composure pretty well throughout.

So, well done, and next time a coach deserves to be ejected, eject him. Seems to me you have a promising future as an umpire.

JM

Edited January 31, 2009 by UmpJM
Typo

[BrianC14]

The situation I remember most was an 11u game during fall ball. The whole coaching staff was a bunch of jerks, and ended up getting kicked out of the league at the end. (Not for this specific incident, just everything added up until something broke the camel's back.)

The manager came out to argue balls and strikes with the home plate umpire. (Yea, thats a no-no.) So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager. I cut off the coaches, told them to go back to their dugouts, and to "not start." Well, the one smart mouth said, "Listen kid, Im 35, and your 16. Don't tell me to not start." I ignored as I kept shoo-ing them back to their dugout. When they got to the dugout, the same smart mouth said, "Ok we are here, now get back to your position." to which I replied, "You don't need to be telling me what to do!" He then took my name and number blah blah blah.

The manager ended up getting EJ by the PU for arguing balls and strikes.

Poorly handled on my part? I think so. The coach brought the conversation to a personal level and I followed. But, I have learned my lesson.

First of all, good job cutting off the coaches and keeping them away from your partner.

Second, and as you now realize, you should have run Coach Smartmouth. He shouldn't even have been around to make a comment like telling you to go back to your position.

[JohnT]

Thanks for the comments guys. I am looking forward to a better season this year!

[nolanadair]

I would give the coach a warning and tell him that next he says something negative about you or your partner he is gone.

[Don]

As I am preparing for the upcoming season, I have begin to wonder about all the past opportunities I have had to eject, and haven't. Probably the most frequent opportunities, is age. I hear couple times a year, "Listen kid, your 17 and im 35, you don't tell me what to do!"

I am assuming bringing up age like that would be grounds for an EJ?

If a league is going to use 17 year olds to umpire they should provide some fundamental rules for the young umpires to follow. It would not hurt to let the coaches know also:

1) "Listen Kid" = ejection

2) "You don't tell me what to do" = ejection, see rule 1 if happens in same sentence.

[Don]

The manager came out to argue balls and strikes with the home plate umpire. (Yea, thats a no-no.) So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager. I cut off the coaches, told them to go back to their dugouts, and to "not start." Well, the one smart mouth said, "Listen kid, Im 35, and your 16. Don't tell me to not start." I ignored as I kept shoo-ing them back to their dugout. When they got to the dugout, the same smart mouth said, "Ok we are here, now get back to your position." to which I replied, "You don't need to be telling me what to do!" He then took my name and number blah blah blah.

The manager ended up getting EJ by the PU for arguing balls and strikes.

Poorly handled on my part? I think so. The coach brought the conversation to a personal level and I followed. But, I have learned my lesson.

Yes, see my post just made, rule 1, rule 2 should not be needed if rule 1 exercised first.

[constable]

The situation I remember most was an 11u game during fall ball. The whole coaching staff was a bunch of jerks, and ended up getting kicked out of the league at the end. (Not for this specific incident, just everything added up until something broke the camel's back.)

The manager came out to argue balls and strikes with the home plate umpire. (Yea, thats a no-no.) So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager. I cut off the coaches, told them to go back to their dugouts, and to "not start." Well, the one smart mouth said, "Listen kid, Im 35, and your 16. Don't tell me to not start." I ignored as I kept shoo-ing them back to their dugout. When they got to the dugout, the same smart mouth said, "Ok we are here, now get back to your position." to which I replied, "You don't need to be telling me what to do!" He then took my name and number blah blah blah.

The manager ended up getting EJ by the PU for arguing balls and strikes.

Poorly handled on my part? I think so. The coach brought the conversation to a personal level and I followed. But, I have learned my lesson.

If you didn't run him on the first comment, the second one was a given.

Also, if he wants my #, it's on my sleeve. He can get it as he is walking out to the parking lot.

[BrianC14]

....The manager came out to argue balls and strikes with the home plate umpire. (Yea, thats a no-no.) So while the PU was occupied with that, the coaches in the dugout started to head towards home plate to join the manager. I cut off the coaches, told them to go back to their dugouts, and to "not start." Well, the one smart mouth said, "Listen kid, Im 35, and your 16. Don't tell me to not start." I ignored as I kept shoo-ing them back to their dugout. When they got to the dugout, the same smart mouth said, "Ok we are here, now get back to your position."

With that comment, he just put himself on the ejection seat. You should have pulled the handle right there.

to which I replied, "You don't need to be telling me what to do!" He then took my name and number blah blah blah.

See? You left him another opening to keep mouthing off. Big deal he takes your number down.... so what? He shouldn't have been around to do that, anyway. There isn't a coach in the world who doesn't understand that is isn't his place to be telling the umpire what to do or when to do it.

The manager ended up getting EJ by the PU for arguing balls and strikes.

Poorly handled on my part? I think so. The coach brought the conversation to a personal level and I followed. But, I have learned my lesson.

There you go! :tantrum:

Edited August 17, 2009 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

I would give the coach a warning and tell him that next he says something negative about you or your partner he is gone.

Nope.

Bad advice. Way too many words, and NEVER use the "next time you do this/say this or that" stuff. Forget it. Doing this allows any coach, at any time, one free insult.

[HokieUmp]

The Worst Things You Can Say:

• “Sorry coach, it’s a judgment call.

Why exactly do you feel that's one of The Worst Things You Can Say? Would you not agree there are times when it's the truth? I also disagree that the above is one of The Worst Things You Can Say especially when you advocate the following:

When a coach does come out:

snip

• Do not, under any circumstances, let him demonstrate. If he does, say, “coach, let’s talk about it like men.”

I disagree with that, simply because that's provocative. Whether you're 15, like you, or 44, like me, that's still not the kind of line you want to deliver to a coach, especially when he's already in a foul mood. He's out there to argue, right? Well, here's what that line does:

I'm not saying let him demonstrate. I would prefer to say something like "don't demonstrate", or a specific "don't XXX", where XXX is the action he's dying to do that you don't want him to do. Then if he does, *sproing*, out he goes.

Things to Say:

snip

• “And your point is?”

Oh dear.

I haven't read any replies from anyone else, if there are any, but again, this is so not a Thing To Say. Yes, I understand that Tone Is Everything, but can anyone out there in ForumLand tell me how many times they've heard that in a conversation when it's not meant in a snarky, sarcastic fashion?

Edited August 17, 2009 by HokieUmp

[BrianC14]

I argree sometimes you are going to have to use the saying, but where I'm coming from is after you meet him halfway, dont say its a judgement call. As long as skip is under control and calm, I dont see any harm letting him come out and voice his opinion (of course if its not to long). I'll even say, "What did you see skip?" he tells me what he say, I tell him what I saw after that (usually that's when if the coach is under control, he leaves. If not, that's when I'll tell him its a judgement call and its not up for any more discussion(then he leaves). You will have to say "Sorry coach its a judgement call" but dont say that right off that bat, especially if its bang bang and the coach just thinks you missed it. If you let him talk for a bit, skip will get what he feels off his chest.

Who doesn't know this is judgment call? What's the point of stating the obvious?

And then you're going to say, "Sorry" ?? What are you apologizing for?

Sure, you let him have his say - e.g., as long as he's talking about the play, and not talking about you and/or your judgment of it. You tell me what you have, and that's it. There's no "it's my judgment"; there's certainly no, "Sorry". Again,

He stays longer than that, and you tell him that it's time to get on with the game. He stays beyond that, and it's time to get the hook.

[Dragon29]

For what it's worth Hokie - I'm with you.

I'm sorry French, but I found most of the advice in your post to be ill-considered and provocative. I'm in the camp that believes less is more - the less you say, the more authority you'll have.

Let the manager vent, yes - but that's it. And, reminding him that he's arguing a judgment call is, many times, a very good idea. In fact, I'd nip that in the bud before it even happens - If he wants to come out and respectfully request I get help from my partner, I'll consider it in some circumstances, but if all he wants to do is question my eyesight or judgment, I'm sending him back to the dugout or out to the parking lot.

Any specificity you use in a warning backs you into a corner; warnings should be in the form of "That's enough, Skip"

Remember that umpire/coach relationships change depending upon the level of ball being played; at the college level (which I have never done) your friend's advice may work better - but in youth ball, no way.

Just my $ .02

[mstaylor]

When a coach does come out:• Meet him halfway, if possible

I do not meet him, he comes to me. Meeting him makes you look aggressive.

• Listen without interruption Agreed.

• Do not, under any circumstances, let him demonstrate. Agreed.If he does, say, “coach, let’s talk about it like men.” I would never say this no matter the age.

If he continues, warn him. If he keeps it up, toss him OK with that.

Watch your body language:

• Look the coach directly in the eyes

• Take a non aggressive stance-hands on your side or behind your back (not hands on hips or arms crossed around chest)

• Let your face show your listening, even if you’re not

• Keep it calm

• People can’t always hear it, but they can see it I’m good with everything except the “even if you’re not” line. There is no reason you shouldn’t be listening.

Things to Say:• “Coach, what did you see?” Good.

• “Coach, I got a very good look at that Good.

• “Your batter didn’t act like it hit him” Bad, say” I don’t have it hitting him.”

• “And your point is?” Bad, say “ I don’t know what’s happened in other games but here it is xxxx.”

• “What rule applies to this play?” Bad,say “ The rule says xxxx”

If the coach is animated…

• Things to say:o “I will listen to you but, I won’t have you yell at me.” Bad, just leave that out of the discussion. Let him vent then discuss or toss accordingly.

Bullet Proof Answers:

• Balk/illegal pitch complaint: “Coach, he’s okay for me” I prefer “I’m not seeing what you are but I’ll watch it.”

• Why wasn’t that a strike complaint: “I didn’t like the pitch Bad, say”It’s not in the zone” or just tell him where it was.

Coach Say:

• You’re the only umpire who has called that all year…answer: “And your point is?” See above: “I don’t know what happened in other games but today…”

• Let the kids play the game Ignore, jerk attached.

• Don’t talk to my players…call time, call the coach out to the foul line, and say, “Coach, you’re not going to tell me how to run this game, alright. Now I don’t want to hear anything else anymore from you, got it? And if you follow me back, or do any other type of action except get back to your dugout and be quiet, you’re gone.” Then walk away…You can also say, “If you don’t return immediately to the dugout you are going to get ejected for delaying the game" 'Drop the whole answer:Instead use,” If I have a problem with a player I will discuss it with him.” The coach will decide where he wants to go from there. Leave or stay will be his choice.

Edited August 17, 2009 by mstaylor

[kylejt]

I'm the UIC at a local that's been using Junior umpires for 10 years. In fact, this year I'm doing away with that term, and they're just going to be umpires. No need to make any distinction.

I have a meeting with all the coaches before the season starts, and lay out the ground rules. "If you want to have an 11 year old toss you out of a game, try to imagine what you're going to say to your wife/friends/players the next day." It rarely happens. I put well trained 13 year olds on Majors plates, with no beefs at all. They've been to the week long, and to my Winterball School. So they know their stuff.

Trouble comes in our local city tournament. The other leagues don't do any sort of training for their kids, and thus don't expect much from them. The can't fathom that a 12 year old can work a minors dish, or that a 14 year old can work the plate on a championship Major game. It's insulting to them.

Again, I subscribe to the simple phrase "That's enough". I drill that into both the umpires and the managers so everyone knows what will happen next. It really works. Keep it simple (well, at least for the managers).