Heard from the dugout

[grayhawk]

Worked a HS double header on Saturday - nothing special, JV winter ball.  There were several times, with a LH pitcher, that R1 took off at first movement.  F1 would then throw to F3, who would throw too late to F6 covering 2nd - stolen base.

 

At one point, I heard a coach talking to a player in the dugout about this situation.  I overheard him say that "you can't pick to 2nd because it's an unoccupied base."

 

Being winter ball, I asked him between innings if he said that the pitcher can't pick to second on that play since it's an unoccupied base and he said that he did say that.  I informed him that if R1 is stealing and F1 hasn't committed to first or home that he could use an inside move to throw directly to second base and he said he had never heard that.  I let him know that it's legal because they are throwing there to make a play.  He was stunned.

 

He then asked if a RH could do it as well and I told him that it makes no difference.  Of course, it's harder for a RH because he can't see the runner.  Just be sure that the pitcher doesn't hang his knee trying to freeze the runner because that would be a balk for interrupting his motion.

 

Have your heard similar kinds of comments?  What have your heard from the dugout that you corrected during a game with a relaxed atmosphere?

 

[catcher]

I had a coach ask me if runners have to peel into foul territory after touching first (this was 9u, and it was her first year coaching). She was coaching first, I was doing the plate, she asked me as I was walking by between innings. She listened to my brief explanation, said thanks, and that was that. I wish all my coach conversations went like that

[umpstu]

Had a long tenured(old) college coach not realize that an umpire could interfere on the catcher's throw to second base. He thought if it happened that we were just part of the field.

[grayhawk]

Had a long tenured(old) college coach not realize that an umpire could interfere on the catcher's throw to second base. He thought if it happened that we were just part of the field.

 

Well, they treat us like dirt.  What's the difference to them?

[Jimurray]

Worked a HS double header on Saturday - nothing special, JV winter ball.  There were several times, with a LH pitcher, that R1 took off at first movement.  F1 would then throw to F3, who would throw too late to F6 covering 2nd - stolen base.

 

At one point, I heard a coach talking to a player in the dugout about this situation.  I overheard him say that "you can't pick to 2nd because it's an unoccupied base."

 

Being winter ball, I asked him between innings if he said that the pitcher can't pick to second on that play since it's an unoccupied base and he said that he did say that.  I informed him that if R1 is stealing and F1 hasn't committed to first or home that he could use an inside move to throw directly to second base and he said he had never heard that.  I let him know that it's legal because they are throwing there to make a play.  He was stunned.

I've corrected some minor missinterps if I've heard them at the JV level but I've expected that good deed to be punished by a later: "But you told me - insert twisted revision of what you actually said." Hasn't happened yet but good luck to you.

Not just coaches though. Some of our umpires that don't read the book and depend on what they hear will give you the same line after kicking a rule.

 

He then asked if a RH could do it as well and I told him that it makes no difference.  Of course, it's harder for a RH because he can't see the runner.  Just be sure that the pitcher doesn't hang his knee trying to freeze the runner because that would be a balk for interrupting his motion.

 

Have your heard similar kinds of comments?  What have your heard from the dugout that you corrected during a game with a relaxed atmosphere?

[Jimurray]

My quote worked but my text didn't get put in. Here it is: I've corrected some missinterps at the JV level when I've heard them. But I've expected that good deed to not go unpunished with a late: "but you told me -- insert twisted revision of what you actually said."

But it's not just coaches. Some of our rulebook challenged umpires will use that excuse when they kick a rule.

[VolUmp]

Gray,  I'm convinced that these eight words: "Except For The Purpose Of Making A Play" are written in invisible ink in every rule book that coaches read, and black ink in every rule book that officials read.

 

There is, indeed, a quirky judgment element that comes in though ... If R1 appears to take off, and stutter steps and stops after three steps, as F1 spins and throws to 2B, what have ya got?

 

The common interp around here is ... BALK.  R1 faked out F1 to balk and succeeded.

 

That's the stickler ... we believe it has to be a legitimate "play."  Not just, "I thought he was breaking for 2B so I fended off a steal."

 

I've called both and have been prepared with that explanation either way.

A)  "Coach ... he has a perfect right to throw to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner in a continuous motion for the purpose of making a play."

B)  "Coach, if he throws to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner, and in my judgment the runner never made a legit advance toward that base, it's a balk."

 

You'll never make everyone happy ... especially when every call has some element of judgment.

 

And Gray, I've gotten myself in a whole lot of trouble by trying to correct or coach during fall ball or summer ball.

I have a new policy from which I never waiver ... if they don't ask, I don't tell.

[Jimurray]

Gray,  I'm convinced that these eight words: "Except For The Purpose Of Making A Play" are written in invisible ink in every rule book that coaches read, and black ink in every rule book that officials read.

 

There is, indeed, a quirky judgment element that comes in though ... If R1 appears to take off, and stutter steps and stops after three steps, as F1 spins and throws to 2B, what have ya got?

 

The common interp around here is ... BALK.  R1 faked out F1 to balk and succeeded.

 

That's the stickler ... we believe it has to be a legitimate "play."  Not just, "I thought he was breaking for 2B so I fended off a steal."

 

I've called both and have been prepared with that explanation either way.

A)  "Coach ... he has a perfect right to throw to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner in a continuous motion for the purpose of making a play."

B)  "Coach, if he throws to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner, and in my judgment the runner never made a legit advance toward that base, it's a balk."

 

You'll never make everyone happy ... especially when every call has some element of judgment.

 

And Gray, I've gotten myself in a whole lot of trouble by trying to correct or coach during fall ball or summer ball.

I have a new policy from which I never waiver ... if they don't ask, I don't tell.

FED has a caseplay that does not balk the throw to 2B if R1 fakes the advance. No judgement required in FED.

[noumpere]

 

Gray,  I'm convinced that these eight words: "Except For The Purpose Of Making A Play" are written in invisible ink in every rule book that coaches read, and black ink in every rule book that officials read.

 

There is, indeed, a quirky judgment element that comes in though ... If R1 appears to take off, and stutter steps and stops after three steps, as F1 spins and throws to 2B, what have ya got?

 

The common interp around here is ... BALK.  R1 faked out F1 to balk and succeeded.

 

That's the stickler ... we believe it has to be a legitimate "play."  Not just, "I thought he was breaking for 2B so I fended off a steal."

 

I've called both and have been prepared with that explanation either way.

A)  "Coach ... he has a perfect right to throw to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner in a continuous motion for the purpose of making a play."

B)  "Coach, if he throws to an unoccupied base ahead of the runner, and in my judgment the runner never made a legit advance toward that base, it's a balk."

 

You'll never make everyone happy ... especially when every call has some element of judgment.

 

And Gray, I've gotten myself in a whole lot of trouble by trying to correct or coach during fall ball or summer ball.

I have a new policy from which I never waiver ... if they don't ask, I don't tell.

FED has a caseplay that does not balk the throw to 2B if R1 fakes the advance. No judgement required in FED.

 

And in OBR the standard is something line "The umpire must be convinced the runner was making a legitimate attempt to advance and not just bluffing an advance."

 

As a practical matter at any level under pro ball, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense that this was an attempt to advance and is not a balk.

[maven]

FED has a caseplay that does not balk the throw to 2B if R1 fakes the advance. No judgment required in FED.

Not just a caseplay, it's in 6-2-4b: it is a balk for

"throwing or feinting to any unoccupied base when it is not an attempt to put out or drive back a runner;"

 

The umpire must judge whether F1 is attempting to put out or drive back a runner, so that is clearly a judgment call. Benefit of the doubt goes to the defense, as noumpere says: if R1 does anything that could reasonably be judged to be an advance, the throw to 2B is legal.

[mstaylor]

Pretty much in Fed, unless he makes no advance, I'm not balking him. In OBR he has to a real attempt to advance, use your own standard on that.

Have I explained rules to coaches in a relaxed setting, absolutely.