NCAA "Last Time By"

[Jimurray]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

no.. there is no such thing as a gross miss.... is the base runner a dumbass... yes.... but he fixed it the last time he ran by... who cares if he missed the base by 10 feet or 30

Responding to another part of your answer. The gross miss interp tries to not absolve a cheating runner. No dumbass would gross miss a base and not know he did. So maybe the interp should require the ump to discern a cheating miss versus a dumbass miss.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Jim.. its not cheating.. and the rules say nothing about him missing a base by more than ...so how many feet?.. it s doesnt say.. weather you miss it by 2 inches or 2 feet, your missing a base... but this is not make a travesty of the game or cheating, he just cuts across the infield...

[JaxRolo]

It is cheating. A couple of years ago I was on the bases. R1. B1 Bunts and everyone is looking at the plate area for the play. In the meantime R1 cuts right across the field on his way to third. No one saw it but me.

 

Designed play to cheat.

[cookie]

FED does not allow gross miss to be corrected by "last time by". 8.2.6 Sit H. However, that caseplay uses a "few inches" as a missed base and greater than that as "such a great distance" that it was to "gain an advantage".

 

The BRD has Fitzpatrick and JR not allowing a gross miss correction if the miss was a travesty, Fitzpatrick or a body length, JR. Both references are old now and I can't quote but Haid and Jax Rolo seem to say that gross miss is now correctable in OBR.

Edited to add that WUM has a reference play P336 that allows a gross miss to be corrected last time by in OBR.

 I don't have the WUM. Can you copy and paste here the reference play P336 from the WUM. I'd like to read it. Thanks in advance.

[UmpTTS43]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

no.. there is no such thing as a gross miss.... is the base runner a dumbass... yes.... but he fixed it the last time he ran by... who cares if he missed the base by 10 feet or 30

This last time by concept in the NCAA came in when Yeast was the national coordinator. In my discussions with him at the time, a gross miss was not corrected by LTB and the runner was still subject to be put out upon proper appeal. This philosophy was not designed to allow players to willfully break the rules.

[cookie]

 

 

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

no.. there is no such thing as a gross miss.... is the base runner a dumbass... yes.... but he fixed it the last time he ran by... who cares if he missed the base by 10 feet or 30

This last time by concept in the NCAA came in when Yeast was the national coordinator. In my discussions with him at the time, a gross miss was not corrected by LTB and the runner was still subject to be put out upon proper appeal. This philosophy was not designed to allow players to willfully break the rules.

 

But I guess Dave Yeast never put his opinion into the "official interpretation" category, eg. AR or AO in the NCAA Rule Book. Fed has its Casebook interpretation and Pro rules have the Jacksa/Roder and the Fitzpatrick interpretations (though now I'm hearing about a WUM interpretation - play P336 - that appears to contradict Jacksa/Roder and Fitzpatrick). In my answer to the NCAA question, I had the runner called out on appeal, though I think I got it wrong because it appears via that NCAA Rule Book  Last Time By "...corrects any previous base-running infraction."

 

 

PS: I have figured out that it was my laptop or the Windows 8 of my laptop that prevented my quote of other posts. I'm using my Windows 7 desktop right now and the quote button works just fine...

[Jimurray]

 

FED does not allow gross miss to be corrected by "last time by". 8.2.6 Sit H. However, that caseplay uses a "few inches" as a missed base and greater than that as "such a great distance" that it was to "gain an advantage".

 

The BRD has Fitzpatrick and JR not allowing a gross miss correction if the miss was a travesty, Fitzpatrick or a body length, JR. Both references are old now and I can't quote but Haid and Jax Rolo seem to say that gross miss is now correctable in OBR.

Edited to add that WUM has a reference play P336 that allows a gross miss to be corrected last time by in OBR.

 I don't have the WUM. Can you copy and paste here the reference play P336 from the WUM. I'd like to read it. Thanks in advance.

 

Had to scan, pdf and convert to Word. Did you vote for me in member of the month?

 

P335 Rl, one out,  2-1  count.  With  Rl stealing on  the  pitch, the  batter   hits a towering fly ball to center field. When the center fielder makes the catch, Rl has rounded second base. On his way back to first  base to tag  up, he just misses second on his way past it. Rl slides back  into first base just before the ball reaches it,  and he is called "safe" by the  umpire. The defense then tags second base, appealing that Rl missed it.

Ruling: Rl is out for missing second base. He is required to touch each  base, each time that  he passes it.

 

P336' Same situation  as above.  However, when the  ball is  caught  by the center fielder, Rl is half way between second and third base. Instead of attempting to touch second base on his way back, he cuts across the middle of the infield. The center fielder, seeing Rl will easly make it back into first base, throws the ball wildly past first base, where it enters the dugout. When the ball leaves the fielder's  hand,  Rl  is in between  first  and  second  base. The umpire calls "time,", and awards Rl third base. Rl then continues back and touches first base, then advances and touches second  base, and to third base. When the ball is put back into play the defense tags Rl, appealing that he missed second base.

Rilling: Rl is not out for missing second base. When he was awarded  third base, he completed  his requirements of tagging up from first  base, as well as the touching of all bases on his last time by them.

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

FED does not allow gross miss to be corrected by "last time by". 8.2.6 Sit H. However, that caseplay uses a "few inches" as a missed base and greater than that as "such a great distance" that it was to "gain an advantage".

 

The BRD has Fitzpatrick and JR not allowing a gross miss correction if the miss was a travesty, Fitzpatrick or a body length, JR. Both references are old now and I can't quote but Haid and Jax Rolo seem to say that gross miss is now correctable in OBR.

Edited to add that WUM has a reference play P336 that allows a gross miss to be corrected last time by in OBR.

 I don't have the WUM. Can you copy and paste here the reference play P336 from the WUM. I'd like to read it. Thanks in advance.

 

I do have a copy of the WUM book... and it does talk about the last time by and this exact play... they say no appeal as he fixed his baserunning mistake on the last time by.

[UmpTTS43]

When the LTB concept was presented in the annual NCAA preseason guide, it did not discuss gross misses. This is why I had further discussions with the powers that be at the time.

I may be incorrect. It happens.

[Haid D' Salaami]

When the LTB concept was presented in the annual NCAA preseason guide, it did not discuss gross misses. This is why I had further discussions with the powers that be at the time.

I may be incorrect. It happens.

See what happens when you attend a Umpire Academy and not the School..you end up being wrong.....

[maven]

When the LTB concept was presented in the annual NCAA preseason guide, it did not discuss gross misses. This is why I had further discussions with the powers that be at the time.

I may be incorrect. It happens.

See what happens when you attend a Umpire Academy and not the School..you end up being wrong.....

I had that thought about the NCAA interp on that 4th out play...

maven

[cookie]

 

 

FED does not allow gross miss to be corrected by "last time by". 8.2.6 Sit H. However, that caseplay uses a "few inches" as a missed base and greater than that as "such a great distance" that it was to "gain an advantage".

 

The BRD has Fitzpatrick and JR not allowing a gross miss correction if the miss was a travesty, Fitzpatrick or a body length, JR. Both references are old now and I can't quote but Haid and Jax Rolo seem to say that gross miss is now correctable in OBR.

Edited to add that WUM has a reference play P336 that allows a gross miss to be corrected last time by in OBR.

 I don't have the WUM. Can you copy and paste here the reference play P336 from the WUM. I'd like to read it. Thanks in advance.

 

Had to scan, pdf and convert to Word. Did you vote for me in member of the month?

 

P335 Rl, one out,  2-1  count.  With  Rl stealing on  the  pitch, the  batter   hits a towering fly ball to center field. When the center fielder makes the catch, Rl has rounded second base. On his way back to first  base to tag  up, he just misses second on his way past it. Rl slides back  into first base just before the ball reaches it,  and he is called "safe" by the  umpire. The defense then tags second base, appealing that Rl missed it.

Ruling: Rl is out for missing second base. He is required to touch each  base, each time that  he passes it.

 

P336' Same situation  as above.  However, when the  ball is  caught  by the center fielder, Rl is half way between second and third base. Instead of attempting to touch second base on his way back, he cuts across the middle of the infield. The center fielder, seeing Rl will easly make it back into first base, throws the ball wildly past first base, where it enters the dugout. When the ball leaves the fielder's  hand,  Rl  is in between  first  and  second  base. The umpire calls "time,", and awards Rl third base. Rl then continues back and touches first base, then advances and touches second  base, and to third base. When the ball is put back into play the defense tags Rl, appealing that he missed second base.

Rilling: Rl is not out for missing second base. When he was awarded  third base, he completed  his requirements of tagging up from first  base, as well as the touching of all bases on his last time by them.

 

Thanks for posting those plays (#335 & #336) from the WUM. Well, it sure looks like there are contradictory responses to this issue of "gross miss" on the MLB (MiLB also???) when you take into consideration those umpires coming out of the umpire schools circa 1990's/early 2000's and those coming out of the Wendelstedt school over the past 5 years. It'd be interesting to know Jim Evans' interpretation....

 

(...though the likelihood of this kind of third world play ever happening is remote. It seems more like something to keep umpires' minds busy during test time.)

[RichMSN]

Well, I'd like to be helpful, but the only way I could be is if I got 100% on the exam and I didn't -- I missed one question.  So I don't know if this is the one I missed.  For what it's worth, I answered that the gross miss *does* make a difference and the appeal will be upheld.

[noumpere]

Well, I'd like to be helpful, but the only way I could be is if I got 100% on the exam and I didn't -- I missed one question.  So I don't know if this is the one I missed.  For what it's worth, I answered that the gross miss *does* make a difference and the appeal will be upheld.

That's the one you missed then.

[RichMSN]

We'll see on Tuesday, I guess.

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[noumpere]

We'll see on Tuesday, I guess.

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Indeed.  But since I figured out which one I missed and got it corrected, then I know which one you missed, unless the answer key is wrong of course, which happened just last year.

[RichMSN]

I think you're right, BTW.

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[Forest Ump]

Which way did you go on the video where the runner bowls over the catcher? NCAA clinic said it was a baseball play. Lot of guys around here say its obstruction. Doesn't make since to answer obstruction if the clinic said it's nothing.

[UmpTTS43]

It can't be OBS. F2 was in the act of fielding the throw.

[RichMSN]

If Hiler says it's nothing at the clinic, it's nothing on the test.

F2 was fielding the throw. It would've been OBS those misguided years when they "fixed" the rules and then had to fix them back.

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[noumpere]

 

 Lot of guys around here say its obstruction.

That's exactly why the video was shown and why its a question on the test.  So "lots of guys" will learn they are wrong.

[dumbdumb]

Just a quick off topic good luck to you guys in NCAA ball this coming season which opens during the next week with D1, or if you have already opened up in any division.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Which way did you go on the video where the runner bowls over the catcher? NCAA clinic said it was a baseball play. Lot of guys around here say its obstruction. Doesn't make since to answer obstruction if the clinic said it's nothing.

Its not OBS..and if you went to the NCAA clinic they told you why...

[Haid D' Salaami]

 Lot of guys around here say its obstruction. 

To tell you the truth.. Lot's of guys don't know the rules, they copy and paste them on here, but dont know them, or how to apply them.

[JDavis225]

We'll see on Tuesday, I guess.

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I'm new to this. I assume on Tuesday an answer key will be released? Will they also let me go back and see what I missed?