NCAA "Last Time By"

[cookie]

Both Pro Rules (thru Official Interpretation) and Fed Rules (CaseBook) disallow  "last time by"  if there is a "gross miss" of a base prior to retouching it on the runner's "last time by" that base. 

 

For example, a runner on a batted ball who touches 2nd on his way to 3rd but then sees that the deep fly ball has been caught runs back to 1st by cutting across the diamond (thus missing 2nd base by a large distance). The throw from the outfield to 1st goes out of play, so the runner is awarded 2 bases. The runner retouches 1st, touches 2nd and then goes to 3rd.

 

"Last time by" will not protect the runner from being called out on appeal in Pro and HS baseball. However, NCAA says nothing about this "gross miss." Therefore, it is safe to conclude in NCAA that no matter how much distance a runner misses a base by, the "Last Time By" rule (NCAA 2-51 AR) will protect him from being called out on appeal if he touches that missed base on his last time by? 

 

[zm1283]

This was a test question, and yes, I think you're correct.  

[noumpere]

When LTB first was added to the NCAA book, it was specifically mentioned that a "gross miss" did not affect LTB.  I haven't seen anything to contradict that, but much like the "4th out on BR at first" play, Im a little surprised it hasn't made it to an AR or something.

[JaxRolo]

I agree but can someone tell me how much a gross miss is?

[grayhawk]

I agree but can someone tell me how much a gross miss is?

 

Never seen it, but I would think it would be enough to give the offense an advantage.

[umpstu]

Both Pro Rules (thru Official Interpretation) and Fed Rules (CaseBook) disallow  "last time by"  if there is a "gross miss" of a base prior to retouching it on the runner's "last time by" that base. 

 

For example, a runner on a batted ball who touches 2nd on his way to 3rd but then sees that the deep fly ball has been caught runs back to 1st by cutting across the diamond (thus missing 2nd base by a large distance). The throw from the outfield to 1st goes out of play, so the runner is awarded 2 bases. The runner retouches 1st, touches 2nd and then goes to 3rd.

 

"Last time by" will not protect the runner from being called out on appeal in Pro and HS baseball. However, NCAA says nothing about this "gross miss." Therefore, it is safe to conclude in NCAA that no matter how much distance a runner misses a base by, the "Last Time By" rule (NCAA 2-51 AR) will protect him from being called out on appeal if he touches that missed base on his last time by? 

I answered yes.

[maven]

I agree but can someone tell me how much a gross miss is?

More than 3 feet.

maven

[UmpTTS43]

I agree but can someone tell me how much a gross miss is?

About that far.

[JaxRolo]

From here to there? Or more?

[UmpTTS43]

From here to there? Or more?

Yup. You pretty much nailed it.

[JaxRolo]

From here to there? Or more?

Yup. You pretty much nailed it.

So if it is a little less then it's ok?

[UmpTTS43]

From here to there? Or more?

Yup. You pretty much nailed it. So if it is a little less then it's ok?

Yes as long as it's just a little.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Both Pro Rules (thru Official Interpretation) and Fed Rules (CaseBook) disallow  "last time by"  if there is a "gross miss" of a base prior to retouching it on the runner's "last time by" that base. 

 

For example, a runner on a batted ball who touches 2nd on his way to 3rd but then sees that the deep fly ball has been caught runs back to 1st by cutting across the diamond (thus missing 2nd base by a large distance). The throw from the outfield to 1st goes out of play, so the runner is awarded 2 bases. The runner retouches 1st, touches 2nd and then goes to 3rd.

 

"Last time by" will not protect the runner from being called out on appeal in Pro and HS baseball. However, NCAA says nothing about this "gross miss." Therefore, it is safe to conclude in NCAA that no matter how much distance a runner misses a base by, the "Last Time By" rule (NCAA 2-51 AR) will protect him from being called out on appeal if he touches that missed base on his last time by? 

Even in Pro ball the last time by rule exists.. please read the appeals section of the rules.

[Haid D' Salaami]

it doesn't make a difference how far they miss a base.. as long as on the last time by they correct their mistake.

[JaxRolo]

it doesn't make a difference how far they miss a base.. as long as on the last time by they correct their mistake.

 

I think everyone knows this. If not they have a slight problem!

[noumpere]

I agree but can someone tell me how much a gross miss is?

When the runner couldn't have touched the base as he passed it is how I've heard it defined from ML umpires and NCAA big dawgs.

[UmpTTS43]

R1. R1 of on the pitch. B1 hits a fly ball to right center where F8 makes a diving catch. As F8 throws to F3 to retire R1, R1, who is between 2nd and 3rd, cuts across the diamond attempting to return to 1st. The throw from F8 goes out of play. R1 returns to 1st and sebsequently touches 2nd on his way to 3rd during his base award. Is an appeal at 2nd allowed on R1 for his missed base the first time upheld even though he touched it bids last time by?

Yes, the appeal is upheld since his missed base infraction was a gross miss where the runner had no opportunity to retouch the base as he passed it.

Intent is not the sole factor in determining whether or not a gross miss occurred. You should judge whether or not the runner could have touched the base as he passed it.

[maven]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

[Jimurray]

FED does not allow gross miss to be corrected by "last time by". 8.2.6 Sit H. However, that caseplay uses a "few inches" as a missed base and greater than that as "such a great distance" that it was to "gain an advantage".

 

The BRD has Fitzpatrick and JR not allowing a gross miss correction if the miss was a travesty, Fitzpatrick or a body length, JR. Both references are old now and I can't quote but Haid and Jax Rolo seem to say that gross miss is now correctable in OBR.

Edited to add that WUM has a reference play P336 that allows a gross miss to be corrected last time by in OBR.

[maven]

Thanks for the correction for FED. No hint of that in 8-2-6!

[noumpere]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

 

I think it's the other way around for NCAA -- you can correct even a gross miss using LTB.

[Haid D' Salaami]

R1. R1 of on the pitch. B1 hits a fly ball to right center where F8 makes a diving catch. As F8 throws to F3 to retire R1, R1, who is between 2nd and 3rd, cuts across the diamond attempting to return to 1st. The throw from F8 goes out of play. R1 returns to 1st and sebsequently touches 2nd on his way to 3rd during his base award. Is an appeal at 2nd allowed on R1 for his missed base the first time upheld even though he touched it bids last time by?

Yes, the appeal is upheld since his missed base infraction was a gross miss where the runner had no opportunity to retouch the base as he passed it.

Intent is not the sole factor in determining whether or not a gross miss occurred. You should judge whether or not the runner could have touched the base as he passed it.

Troy this is not a rule.... he corrected his base running mistake on the last time by... who cares how the runner crossed the diamond.. this is not for us to Judge or rule an out.. if protested you will lose.

[Haid D' Salaami]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

no.. there is no such thing as a gross miss.... is the base runner a dumbass... yes.... but he fixed it the last time he ran by... who cares if he missed the base by 10 feet or 30

[celt62]

I don't know if this is the right area in NCAA but does anyone have the 2014 NCAA preseason guide in pdf form?  I got mine at the clinic in hard copy and misplaced it.  I didn't join arbiter this year being an off year so I can't download it from there.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Sorry if this request is in the wrong spot.

 

 

Thanks to all that sent pdfs.  Much appreciated, thanks again.

[Jimurray]

The "gross miss = mortal sin" philosophy is unique to NCAA, right?

 

For FED, touching a base last time by "corrects any previous baserunning infraction" per 8-2-6l (that's a lower-case L).

 

For OBR, "last time by" is pure philosophy/interpretation, but my impression is that it functions like FED's explicit rule.

no.. there is no such thing as a gross miss.... is the base runner a dumbass... yes.... but he fixed it the last time he ran by... who cares if he missed the base by 10 feet or 30

Fitzpatrick and Jaska-Roder cared 10 plus years ago. Currently no one in OBR cares. FED cares about a few inches. What is the current NCAA ruling?