Balks

[Mr Umpire]

The pitcher does NOT have to disengage from the rubber before throwing to 1B. However, he, also, cannot make any move naturally associated with his pitch. So, it is very difficult for a right handed pitcher to throw to 1B without either disengaging or doing something like the "jump" move. Because anything he does with his "free" foot can be interpreted as part of pitching if it moves first such as if his front knee buckles as he lifts the foot. It is very difficult for a pitcher to pitch without bending his lead knee so that can be viewed as part of his natural pitching motion.

When is the last time a MLB right handed pitcher tried to pickoff a runner at 1B without disengaging or doing a "jump" move?

Otherwise, the pitcher does NOT have to disengage before throwing to 1B.

As for looking for another association, you will probably find the same kind of guys in all associations. Those who know the rules and those who don't or go by myths. Just learn them yourself and call what you know. Everything else, well, learn as you go and work your way through any tough spots until you get the right answer afterwards.

[daled]

Mr Umpire,

That is exactly what I tried to explain to the guys, however I could not seem to get them to understand my point. Thanks for helping me out I was beginning to think I had forgotten the rules.

[mstaylor]

It is done at the MLB and college fairly often, more in college but you do see it in MLB.

[Stan W.]

The old SAL league umpire who was UIC for my first league back in the 80's said this about balks....

Call 100% of the balks EVERYONE sees.....(read Blatant)

Call 50% of the balks only Baseball people see....(read procedural)

Call None of the balks only you see....(read technical).....

[TomEllis]

Good question.

If the pitcher legally disengages the plate, he is basically free to to what ever he wants. He becomes a fielder.

Without disengaging, he must both gain distance to 1st (or it is generally accepted no closer to home than the 45' mark) AND complete the throw to first.

Also remember that the "jump move" is legal and is considered not disengaging. But, the same rules apply. He must gain distance and release. You will see "jump moves" which actually lose distance to first.

He can feint to any base but 1st. This is why you will see the often attempted, but hardly ever executed "31" move (feint to 3rd attempt at 1st), but not a "13" opposite type move.

I have a senerio that I would like to know if it is a balk or not regarding the above statement.

R1 on first and right hand F1. F1 is in set and does the jump move to first as R1 takes off for second. F1 does not throw to first, but instead throws to second to try to retire R1. When F1 did the jump move, his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate and his free foot lands in front of the pitchers plate towards first base.

Is this a Balk or good move?

Thanks,

Tom

[Umpire in Chief]

I have a senerio that I would like to know if it is a balk or not regarding the above statement.

R1 on first and right hand F1. F1 is in set and does the jump move to first as R1 takes off for second. F1 does not throw to first, but instead throws to second to try to retire R1. When F1 did the jump move, his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate and his free foot lands in front of the pitchers plate towards first base.

Is this a Balk or good move?

Thanks,

Tom

Great question and I'm glad to have you here Tom.

I'd have to say Balk. My thought process is that because the jump move is considered not to be disengaging he must deliver to 1st. The fact that his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate is not relevant because it is not considered disengaging.

I'd also be ready for a visit from the DC who saw the pivot foot behind the pitchers plate and is going to let you know just that.

[mstaylor]

If he step toward first, like it sounds, then it is a balk for not throwing to first.

[LMSANS]

I have a senerio that I would like to know if it is a balk or not regarding the above statement.

R1 on first and right hand F1. F1 is in set and does the jump move to first as R1 takes off for second. F1 does not throw to first, but instead throws to second to try to retire R1. When F1 did the jump move, his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate and his free foot lands in front of the pitchers plate towards first base.

Is this a Balk or good move?

Thanks,

Tom

It doesn't sound like he gained distance towards first...I'd have to go no on the balk, bu HTBT.

[okump96]

It doesn't sound like he gained distance towards first...I'd have to go no on the balk, bu HTBT.

on the jump turn pitcher must complete throw to 1b

[someoneinca]

I have a senerio that I would like to know if it is a balk or not regarding the above statement.

R1 on first and right hand F1. F1 is in set and does the jump move to first as R1 takes off for second. F1 does not throw to first, but instead throws to second to try to retire R1. When F1 did the jump move, his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate and his free foot lands in front of the pitchers plate towards first base.

Is this a Balk or good move?

Thanks,

Tom

I would call a balk because he did not complete a throw to first and the jump move is considered as being in contact.

[LMSANS]

on the jump turn pitcher must complete throw to 1b

I can't remember where, but I know I read someplace that if the F1 turns to pickoff at 1B and R1 breaks for 2B, F1 can continue his turn and throw to 2B. Am I misapplying this?

[widac]

I can't remember where, but I know I read someplace that if the F1 turns to pickoff at 1B and R1 breaks for 2B, F1 can continue his turn and throw to 2B. Am I misapplying this?

I agree although I can't tell you where/if it's written anywhere. If his foot lands pointing to 1st and then he switches towards 2nd it's a balk for feinting to 1st, If F1 can switch from throwing to 1st to throwing to 2nd in mid-air so to speak, in one continuous motion then he's fine.

[widac]

R1 on first and right hand F1. F1 is in set and does the jump move to first as R1 takes off for second. F1 does not throw to first, but instead throws to second to try to retire R1.

Thanks,

Tom

This thread is certainly taking some interesting twists and turns. I agree that the above is a balk because the "jump turn" is considered still engaged and it's an illegal feint if F1 doesn't throw to 1st.

When F1 did the jump move, his pivot foot landed behind the pitchers plate and his free foot lands in front of the pitchers plate towards first base.

Is this a Balk or good move?

Thanks,

Tom

If his free foot gained distance I would not balk him just for this part of it. If his pivot foot ends up behind the rubber It certainly doesn't sound like a particularly "good" move though. Edited March 19, 2009 by widac

[TomEllis]

I can't remember where, but I know I read someplace that if the F1 turns to pickoff at 1B and R1 breaks for 2B, F1 can continue his turn and throw to 2B. Am I misapplying this?

The above quote is why I have asked the question.

Could someone that has either a J/R or Evans interpretation manual look up any case os AR on rule 8.05 (d)?

The OBR wording on this is:

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when—

(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

I would like to know if the jump spin example that I had posted is in this category. I was/am also thinking it is a balk, but now I do not know.

Thanks,

Tom

[mstaylor]

Most of the time the jump step is going to used on a throw to first. No throw equals balk. It is possible to use the jump step to second but mechanically difficult. I would think mid jump switching to second legally would be almost impossible.

The move that is used to go to second is an engaged move that looks like a pitch but he steps over to second on the runner's break. All he has to do is land his free foot on the backside of the rubber. You can throw to an unoccuppied base to make a play.

[Umpire in Chief]

I do not have any sources to verify with here at work, but I'll speak from my gut and listen to what others say to see if I'm heading in the right direction.

The pitcher, without disengaging, cannot just step and throw to an unoccupied base without potential to make a play. But while engaged once committed he cannot change direction. Similar to a balk you might find when a lefty pitcher notices R1 breaking but has began his movement to the plate, and then he tries to make a throw to first. Similarly without disengaging I'd think he wouldn't be able to begin his delivery to first then throw to second; unless he gained distance towards 2nd.

I'm interested to see what others have to say.

[mstaylor]

Once he has started a step in a certain direction he can't change but if the runner breaks before he is committed to a direction he can throw ahead of him.

Say you have your LH pitcher. He starts his motion and the R1 breaks thinking he has to go to either first or the plate. As long as he hasn't started back forward he is allowed to step to second to play on the runner.

[someoneinca]

I can't remember where, but I know I read someplace that if the F1 turns to pickoff at 1B and R1 breaks for 2B, F1 can continue his turn and throw to 2B. Am I misapplying this?

I have not read that, but I have read something similar. Maybe you are confusing the two?

"With a runner on first base, and the runner attempting to steal second, the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base."

If he disengages, he can do what you stated above, but as long as he is in contact and steps toward first, he has to throw there.

[Bigdog]

Hey all,

Since it is a jump turn, IF I am not mistaken, the feet can pretty much land anywhere as long he gains distance and direction toward first base initially.

I would say good move because R1 making a legitimate attempt to get to the next base would eliminate the mandate of a throw.

Bigdog:cool:

[widac]

Hey all,

Since it is a jump turn, IF I am not mistaken, the feet can pretty much land anywhere as long he gains distance and direction toward first base initially.

I would say good move because R1 making a legitimate attempt to get to the next base would eliminate the mandate of a throw.

Bigdog:cool:

If F1 jump turns towards first and doesn't throw it is a balk for an illegal feint, doesn't matter what the runner's doing.

[MO-Ump]

I am new here. Found the website a couple of months ago or so. Anyway in reading some of the balk things I had to throw mine in. I umpire HS baseball in NE Missouri and we opened last night.

Before the game while we are dressing, the assistant coach from one of the teams comes up to us and wants to know if we'll answer a question for him. Of course we immediately know he is going to try and trap us in a rules interpretation. Long story short, here is the question. Does the rule book say there is a difference in pick-off moves by a lefty and righty? If not, then why can't a righty lift his leg and then immediately swing it straight back and make a move to first? A lefty can lift and step toward first so why can't a righty? We said it is impossible for your momentum to not go towards home thus making it a balk. He said the rules interpretor at his rules meeting said it is a legal move. We said it was deception and would call it a balk if they tried it.

Not sure if I explained the move that well, but would like your thoughts. We had an argument before the game even started!

[mstaylor]

You explained it fine. The answer is you both are right. There is no difference between RH and LH pitchers but there are differences as to what they can do depending where they are going. On your direct question, the RH pitcher may pick his foot up and swing to first and throw. Most will balk it if they lift their foot too high. Now it is also true the other way. If a LHer wants he could make the same move to third that the RHer made to first. For some reason they don't but it is legal.

In OBR 8.01 A and B explains three things that a pitcher can do:

Pitch

Step to a base and throw

Step off

This true in the wind-up and set. In Fed you can't throw to a base from the wind-up.

[widac]

On your direct question, the RH pitcher may pick his foot up and swing to first and throw. Most will balk it if they lift their foot too high. Now it is also true the other way.

I agree w/ mstaylor completly. I think that the most important part is that if you think that he is starting to pitch, to go to the plate, and then throws to a base it's a balk. If F1 steps to a base and throws then it is a pick-off atempt.

[Umpire in Chief]

I do a couple of things to help me call balks when needed and it seems to work for me.

As BU:

First I pay strict attention to when he engages the pitchers plate.

Then when he comes set I say or think "set" to myself. If I don't say/think set to myself then its a quick pitch balk.

I also say or think "okay" to myself when I judge him to have committed to go to the plate. If I say or think okay and he does something different it's a balk.

These don't help for balks on gaining distance and direction other than the fact I have taken look at when he engaged and can make a good judgement.

From the plate I also have a routine which helps me on quick pitch balks. After calling the preceding pitch I take a step back. When the pitcher engages the plate I step into the slot. When he comes set I take my initial crouch into position, then as he begins his delivery I lock in. If I haven't become locked in he's quick pitched. It'd difficult to explain the timing but it also helps me detect when he's committed himself to pitch. Basically if I'm expecting the pitch, he's committed.

I actually developed this technique because early in my career I was getting in position as soon as the pitcher received the ball. This caused a few problems: first, i was missing other things which were going on, Next I looked foolish, and most importantly being in the crouch for that long was causing unnecessary stress on my legs and back.

I was then able to mold and develop this technique from a robotic timing system to something more fluid and natural and then apply it to balks as I became more comfortable in recognizing and calling balks. YMMV

[Robert Roe]

Situation:

Runners on 1st and 3rd. Pitcher is set. From set pitcher steps directly towards third foot still on rubber and fakes a throw to third and does NOT turn to throw to 1st. Balk?