Checking with partner ...

[dave0mary]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

[conbo61]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

This topic just came up Tuesday night at our HS Assoc. meeting. Based on our discussion, you did it correctly. Get the information and then make the call. Get it right the FIRST time.

[jjb]

I can see it both ways: one the one hand, you want the best information you can get before you make the call. That gives you confidence that you got it right. I'm with you, sounds reasonable.

On the other hand, look at it from the perspective of the coach/fan: you've got a close one, and they see (with their hearts), what they think the call "should be". It's already in their heads, whether it's safe or or out. Now, instead of seeing you make a call, they see you point ,at, and then confer with your partner. In their minds, they see you asking for help, aka, you don't know, aka, whatever you say will be wrong to 50% of the people. I think it may make you look less confident in your eventual call.

How many times have you had a coach come out and ask (politely) "can you check with your partner/" You do, and then, when the next banger comes along, you hear from the bench/stands, "check with your partner". Mind you, I'm not saying don't ever check: I do it whenever it's necessary. But, you've got to understand the ice you're sliding out on when you do. Personally, I'd make the call, and wait for the coach to ask me (politely).

[hckyosgood30]

Again this topic came up with our Association. Here in CA they want us to make the call first then go to our partner if and only if the call is challenged and the HC asks for you to go for help. There are to many variables that can come up and the PU may not truly have a good look. Especially if he's watching the touch at home. But that is something that you SHOULD pregame. If you agree that you'll go to him then he won't have a problem with it. But do what your local association wants and pregame it with each partner so everyone is on the same page. But for me personally I make the call then go for help once the play is over.

[yawetag]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

[JaxRolo]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

You are correct on this. This is a rotation play. But on the other hand with nobody on base you still make the calk then ask for help if needed. This is what we were taught at the Southern camp

[dave0mary]

First of all, your PU should have been watching R3, not the play at 1B. Because of this, you could have thrown him under the bus; if he were watching what he should have been watching and you asked him, what would he have said? "I don't know" or "I was watching him" wouldn't look good for either of you.

... except I looked to see if he was ready to give his opinion. No one got near a bus.

[Mike Prince]

You both need to be aware of the situation though, his first priority was a play at the plate, at best he would be late getting into position to have good information for you. Your OP said nothing about looking to see if he was ready to offer information. Was he up the line or was he at 3BLX ready for a potential call at the plate?

[JaxRolo]

You both need to be aware of the situation though, his first priority was a play at the plate, at best he would be late getting into position to have good information for you. Your OP said nothing about looking to see if he was ready to offer information. Was he up the line or was he at 3BLX ready for a potential call at the plate?

I have been taught that with R1 and R3 when the ball is hit to pause see where the fielder is going with it then hustle up the 3 base line and peek back to make sure R3 touched the plate then you are in position for a play at 3rd.

[Mike Prince]

Yeah I may be off on positioning, but my real point was that the play at 1B is very low on the PU's list of responsibilities in that situation. If he was in position to see the play then fine, guess that part is HTBT and the OP is adding info as the thread evolves.

[JaxRolo]

Yeah I may be off on positioning, but my real point was that the play at 1B is very low on the PU's list of responsibilities in that situation. If he was in position to see the play then fine, guess that part is HTBT and the OP is adding info as the thread evolves.

Yes Good Point. Very low priority for PU on that

[Mr Umpire]

Call first, then ask if asked. They may not have asked and you did it for no reason. Plus, why is he looking like "he was ready to give his opinion"? What does that look like? Why is he looking at the whole play at 1B and not just to see where F3 is going after he catches it? If he is checking the foot and F3 fires it home, he will not have time to get into position. At least, not how I am thinking of it.

By calling first, it appears better that you are confident in your call and don't need anyone's help. Fewer will question it if they think you are positive it was an out. By doing it opposite makes it appear you are not confident and need help to do your job. I don't care how well they know you and know you can do your job.

[dave0mary]

Call first, then ask if asked. They may not have asked and you did it for no reason. Plus, why is he looking like "he was ready to give his opinion"? What does that look like? Why is he looking at the whole play at 1B and not just to see where F3 is going after he catches it? If he is checking the foot and F3 fires it home, he will not have time to get into position. At least, not how I am thinking of it.

By calling first, it appears better that you are confident in your call and don't need anyone's help. Fewer will question it if they think you are positive it was an out. By doing it opposite makes it appear you are not confident and need help to do your job. I don't care how well they know you and know you can do your job.

Because the runner @ 3B was off on the pitch and had crossed home ...

[mstaylor]

I was taught to make the call then ask. Several years ago I was taught to do the other way, ask first, then make the call. If you do it as in the OP, when you get the info, make the call very big, either a big safe or a big out. All you need to tell the coach is," I had the timing, I was just checking the pull." Then, walk away, he needs nothing more. Sounds like you did a good job.

It really is no different than a check swing where the OU isn't sure and asks on his own. He had the pitch but wasn't sure on the swing.

[PeteBooth]

I was doing an intense varsity contest; I was BU. Top 7, visitng team down a run with 1st and 3rd ... 2 out. Grounder to SS who throws in the dirt to first. One bouncer. Almost a banger, but would have (hopefully) received no guff about the call as it wasn't that close. I was ready to make the out call, but couldn't tell if he had the bag though ... lotta dust. So - before I made the call, I asked if "he had the bag". PU says "yes he did". Then I signaled out. The visiting team came unglued - ALL of them. Fans too. But, the games is over and we're walking. As we walk, the PU - who is a very respected ump in N. Illinois - says to me "you're supposed to make the call first then ask for help. If I give you information pointing to a reversal, you then reverse it." I never do it this way, and in this case - it added to the heat I received. But I think I'm right. Anyone else make the call, then ask for help? I don't believe that is the correct mechanic.

What position were you in?

Your OP is a good illustration on why you should be in the B slot with R1/R3. If you are in B you should have been able to get a real good look at the play and not need assistance from your partner.

If you are going to ask your partner before you make the call you better make certain you discussed this in pre-game and also that your partner was watching.

With R1/R3 the PU's job is to watch R3 and make sure he touches the plate in case of an appeal.

Bottom Line: In a 2 person system make your OWN call,

Pete Booth

[Dragon29]

dave,

This conversation comes up at least once per season if not more often.

While I am firmly in the camp that says, "Make your call; check after only if requested to do so by a manager and only if you actually need the help." you have to do what your association teaches &/or wants you to do.

The argument for this is that you look stronger making your own calls (& perception is reality) and by asking in advance, you open yourself up to possibilities that may not have occurred if you had just made the call.

I know the opposing argument is all about 'getting the call right the first time' but I think it's more important to get the call right (which can be done after the fact when necessary) while not eroding the teams' confidence in your ability to officiate their contest.

If your association wants you to call it the way your OP has described, do it - but, all the while I'd be campaigning for change.

[JaxRolo]

Call first, then ask if asked. They may not have asked and you did it for no reason. Plus, why is he looking like "he was ready to give his opinion"? What does that look like? Why is he looking at the whole play at 1B and not just to see where F3 is going after he catches it? If he is checking the foot and F3 fires it home, he will not have time to get into position. At least, not how I am thinking of it.

By calling first, it appears better that you are confident in your call and don't need anyone's help. Fewer will question it if they think you are positive it was an out. By doing it opposite makes it appear you are not confident and need help to do your job. I don't care how well they know you and know you can do your job.

Because the runner @ 3B was off on the pitch and had crossed home ...

Then PU should be at 3B area picking up R1

[amarillo]

Just came from watching a game where a similiar thing happened the BU did not make a call then called time and went to his partner. I will tell you that it looked absolutley horrible from a spectator stand point so I will be in the make the call and then if the coach asks for help go from there camp

[dumbdumb]

What happens if the ss or 2nd pulls their foot to quick on the double play. How do you give the help signal to the plate. What happens when the catcher throws to 3rd and 3rd pulls his foot to quick on the throw to first for a double play. How do you go for help. What happens when the first baseman throws home and the catcher throws back to first base and the catcher pulled his foot on the double play. How do you go for help from the plate. Yes sir re buddy, whole lot of helping going on. Maybe we can call the Beatles. For you young whipper snappers here is how us old wheezer, geezers did it. When they asked for help, we just starting singing this song.

Help, I need somebody,

Help, not just anybody,

Help, you know I need someone, help.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,

I never needed anybody's help in any way.

But now these days are gone, I'm not so self

assured,

Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the

doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being round.

Help me, get my feet back on the ground,

Won't you please, please help me.

And now my life has changed in oh so many ways,

My independence seems to vanish in the haze.

But every now and then I feel so insecure,

I know that I just need you like I've never done

before.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being round.

Help me, get my feet back on the ground,

Won't you please, please help me.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,

I never needed anybody's help in any way.

But now these daya are gone, I'm not so self

assured,

Now I find I've changed my mind and opened up the

doors.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down

And I do appreciate you being round.

Help me, get my feet back on the ground,

Won't you please, please help me, help me, help

me, oh

What do you do if you see a replay later and your partner who gave you the help was wrong. In other words from the best you can tell the foot was on the base, but you are not sure, and pointed to your partner who from the best he can tell, says safe, and he is wrong on instant replay, or from the best you can tell the foot was on the bag and you called an out, but you are not sure, and then go ask your partner on your own, or the coach asks you to ask your partner for help, and you do and your partner says safe, and your partner is wrong on instant replay. In other words, you would have been right if you had gone with what was the best you could tell and saw originally, even though not sure, and made the out call. What if you somehow (why and what can you do to keep it from happening more than once every 5 or 10 years) get straight-lined, and do not see the foot, and your partner who saw it from 90 feet or more, or at best 45 feet, misses the call that you asked for help on when you check the instant replay.

What if you work one man?

Just some food for thought with some things that came to my mental-midget-mind on this topic.

[dave0mary]

What position were you in?

Your OP is a good illustration on why you should be in the B slot with R1/R3. If you are in B you should have been able to get a real good look at the play and not need assistance from your partner.

If you are going to ask your partner before you make the call you better make certain you discussed this in pre-game and also that your partner was watching.

With R1/R3 the PU's job is to watch R3 and make sure he touches the plate in case of an appeal.

Bottom Line: In a 2 person system make your OWN call,

I'm going to answer your concerns and comments in order:

You say I should be in "B", and I was. If you've never asked for assistance while in "B", I seriously doubt if you've umpired. Around here, if you have R1 (I'm in "B"), why does the PU come running towards the mound? To be able to cover 3rd, and see the play at first. My OP said "alotta dust". Kinda makes it hard to see sometimes. I cover ALL pertinent "what if's" in the pre-game. I always say, since it's happened to me, "if I ask you - don't signal out ... just answer my question". I already stated that R3 had crossed the plate. Your bottom line is not mine, nor anyone else in the Chicago or Illinois area. If you're not sure, ask for help. It is rare, but it happens.

In response to my OP, it seems many are interested in lessening the heat, and making a call that is sold. Don't get me wrong, I sell it. But I collect a paycheck for this: knowing and applying the rules and making good judgement calls. I never get into what's popular. Case in point: (I'm PU) last fall in a JUCO game, R1 and R3, 0 outs, 9-9 bottom of 10. Grounder to F4. Catcher is on top or slightly in foul territory (1st base side) of home plate. He gets the throw from F4 when R3 is about 2-3' away. Catcher puts the glove straight down (he must have forgotten where he was) and waits for the slide. R3 touches home first. Not popular. The visiting coach instantly became the Tasmanian Devil. I've been doing this long enough to know what the response was going to be. I had to be escorted to my car. But I drove home relaxed, knowing I made the right call.

[mstaylor]

Dave:

In a two man system with a R1 the BU is responsible for the force at second and then the out at first. The PU comes out toward the left side of the mound to watch for the FPSR violation at second. Then he needs to drift back toward the foul line to watch for ball out of play. He may or may not get a look at the foot at first. I would say in the situation the BU has to move toward the 45ft line to get an angle and make the best call you can. Then if the coach complains, tell bhim you will talk to your partner but he may not have been in position see it. Go to him and talk privately, ask him if he say anything, if yes then decide what to do. If not tell the coach that he didn't see anything.

[yawetag]

Mike,

In the OP, it was R1/R3 with two outs. Shouldn't PU worry about R3 advancing? If a play is possible, he has to be in position for such. If not (R3 is far enough ahead that a play won't be close), he's watching the touch while making his way to 3B for a possible play there.

[JaxRolo]

Mike,

In the OP, it was R1/R3 with two outs. Shouldn't PU worry about R3 advancing? If a play is possible, he has to be in position for such. If not (R3 is far enough ahead that a play won't be close), he's watching the touch while making his way to 3B for a possible play there.

+1 this exactly what I posted earlier

[mstaylor]

Forgot about there being a R3, he has to watch the touch and the ball thrown out of play. If the out isn't made at second, the PU has no responsibility at third. He only covers a first to third when the ball is hit to the outfield.

[Fittske24]

Plate umpire is responsible for the touch at 3rd also.